Best way of finding your rifle's favorite round

[Rock Knocker]

Im just looking for any suggestions and helpfull pointers to finding a rifle's round of choice. I just finnished loading my first 50 rounds. 30 of them were maticulously made to sertain specs. 10 with OAL of 2.240" 24.5gr varget, 5 had CCI 400 primers and 5 had Rem. 7 1/2 primers. I the other 20 with the same recipe just 10 with OAL of 2.245" 5 of each primer and 10 with OAL of 2.250". I only did 30 of these rounds due to lack of the higher quality Hornady brass. But if i zero everything up with the other 20 rounds at 100 yards. Then at 200 or 300 yards shoot five shot groups of each measurement. I know its quite a limited amount of shots to exactly figure a rifle out but as far as can tell its the best start, BUT im totaly new to this so im looking for any help at finding a more efficient or accurate way of finding out what exactly my rifle likes.


BTW... 69gr. Sierra BTHP from an AR15 w/ 1-9" twist. Thanks guys.

 

[necchi]

Don't change too many things at one time.
Stop messin around with changing primers, pick one and use it, you can always try another later.
I find it easier to find the charge it wants first, Then change the seating to find a sweet spot. So pick a seating depth then work the powder charge first. With the 223, two tenths of a grain change can be big, you need to work some kind of test with powder charges.
I started with the Audette Ladder test and it works but the OCW technique is just as good and I think can be done with fewer loads and as close as 100 yrds. Link;
http://www.optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#

You bein a fellow Minnesota feller, I'm sure I have some 1x Hornady around you can have, send me a PM with your addy and I'll ship'm out, ;D

 

[NorCalMikie]

Like what was said already, stick with one primer. Same with powder. Work the powder charge up and down till you can't work it anymore. You start changing too many things at once and you end up chasing your tail. (been there, done that :-[)
Work a 3 shot group. When it starts grouping, load more of "that" charge. Adjust as needed. You'll be limited to OAL by the mag length unless you single feed. (bolt gun is another story)
Load about 10 rounds of one charge, shoot them to get a "clean" barrel coated then stick with a 3 shot group till you start getting tight groups. Not that burning a bunch of ammo in a AR is a bad thing ;D. JMHO

 

[Rock Knocker]

Awsome thats exactly the help i needed, excpecially because im doing the opposite of what you guys are saying ;D. Oh well gives me an even better excuse to go out and shoot these rounds so i can start over.

Necchi- im gonna send you a PM.

I just finished reading what Dan Newberry had to say about finding the "OCW" load for your rifle. A LOT of helpfull stuff in there. That will help immeasurably compared to the way i was going at it. ;D

 

[TheOtherZilla]

What everybody else has said.. FWIW my AR likes TAC powder.. Seems like even after I find a good load I never stop testing new stuff..

 

[whiskey08]

tac, and sierra's. coal length is limited by mags so get close to mag length, and as stated find a powder load that works and wont beat up ur ar. lots or articles on slam fires with some primers. i use cci's for tht reason

 

[Rock Knocker]

OK i will have to try out TAC. Is there anything i should look for besides the cases showing signs of high pressure. I was wondering if i could be giving my rifle an unnecassary beating without the cases showing any signs.

 

[TheOtherZilla]

I use the Sierra reload data for AR's.. It is slightly different than the bolt version.

Here's a link to the data on this site.: http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf

 

[Rock Knocker]

I like that Sierra link, ive looked through it before. The only problem is, is that it doesnt match up with other tables i have seen, or at least the velocoties dont match. For example the one i got with my Lee die set says that 24.0gr of varget will get a 69gr bullet going 3010fps and the Sierra link says 25.3gr of varget will shoot 69gr at 2750. Now i dont know the barrels they tested these in and i understand a gas operated action is going to be a little slower than a bolt gun, but droping 260Fps with having 1.3grs more powder doesnt quite make sense to me. I will have to look around for more tables to compare them to.

looking at the cartridge guide from the top of this site. it says 24.4gr of varget will get a 80gr bullet going 2800fps

 

[whiskey08]

most of the .223 testing is done with longer barrels not 16" ar's. that will account for most of the difference. with my 16" 1 in 8 twist, 77gr mk's and 25.7 of tac Im getting 2750fps

 

[Rock Knocker]

Ok good to know. Im shooting with a 24" barrel, but velocities arent my first concern... so im not going to worry about it.

 

[TheOtherZilla]

I like that Sierra link, ive looked through it before. The only problem is, is that it doesnt match up with other tables i have seen, or at least the velocoties dont match. For example the one i got with my Lee die set says that 24.0gr of varget will get a 69gr bullet going 3010fps and the Sierra link says 25.3gr of varget will shoot 69gr at 2750. Now i dont know the barrels they tested these in and i understand a gas operated action is going to be a little slower than a bolt gun, but droping 260Fps with having 1.3grs more powder doesnt quite make sense to me. I will have to look around for more tables to compare them to.

looking at the cartridge guide from the top of this site. it says 24.4gr of varget will get a 80gr bullet going 2800fps

Every manufacterer has his own data set and usually they do not really agree.. I usually try to use the bullet makers data for the bullet I want to use, and go from there.. There are are a lot of sources for data these days, and a guy just has to use good judgement when working up loads..

Keep in mind that most 223 data was derived from a bolt rifle not an AR..

 

[Rock Knocker]

Yeah i expected that. Does any one know if there is some kind of "formula" for figuring out how much velocity you lose from an AR. Example, 24" bolt action vs. 24" AR.

 

[artbosco]

I'm just looking for any suggestions and helpful pointers to finding a rifle's round of choice.

You might try this. It worked for me and also gave me a set of specified steps that made sense:

Working Up a Load …. by Lee Euber

1. Polish bullet with steel wool. Initial seating depth achieved when bullet is marked by all lands.

POWDER

2. Load 3 cases in a low grain load. Increase each 3 case load by .5 of a grain, and then shoot. Increase loads until primers show pressure.

3. Identify shots that grouped well, not so good, and then good again.

4. Pick load that shot the best. Load 3 cases with .1 grain less, and 3 with .1 grain more, for another comparison.

5. After picking charge for use, load 30 cases with the same powder charge.

SEATING DEPTH

6. Load the 30 cases in groups of 3, increasing the seating depth from touching the lands to jumping about .040 of an inch, in increments of .005 of an inch.

7. Shoot all 30 rounds without cleaning or clean after each 10.

8. Use ONE fouling shot after each cleaning.

9. Select load that shot best. Load 5 cases with that powder charge and seating depth.

10. Load 10 cases, 5 with seating depth .005 less than benchmark figure and 5 with .005 more.

11. Can compare more than once or change seating depth by .001 or .002.

12. Once you’ve picked the best seating depth, load 15 cases at that depth.

POWDER

13. Check first test by varying charge by .1 grain, for each 5 shot group.

14. Shoot in a medium wind condition, letting the gun do the work.

SEATING DEPTH

15. After picking the best load jumping the lands, compare it with the load that touches. Compare these loads again and again, on different days, in varying conditions, deciding which one is best.

16. If it doesn’t shoot to your satisfaction, restart with a different powder.

NECK TENSION

17. If you decide on the load that puts the bullet in the lands, be sure neck tension is tight enough to hold the bullet uniformly.

 

[Rock Knocker]

Great. That has a lot in common with what Dan Newberry wrote. All i really need now is a range thats at least 100 yards and close enough and cheap enough to go through this prossess. Im hoping to be shooting some good 600 yard groups (i would be more than happy with 6") in december. I soppose i could bring my reloading equipment to the range and hope they dont have a problem with it. Thanks for all the help.

 

[artbosco]

Does any one know if there is some kind of "formula" for figuring out how much velocity you lose from an AR. Example, 24" bolt action vs. 24" AR.

Speed in itself means very little.

Once you've worked up a load using the above guide or one similar AND after you've got the bullets going through the same hole or touching each other THEN chronograph the load for future reference ... for when you change lots of the same powder. This will help you get up to the those tiny groups much faster, assuming of course, that you have not changed any of the other components.

 

[Rock Knocker]

Yes im really not worried about fps for now im just looking for accuracy. I was just wondering how much energy it takes to opperate a gas action, and how much it can be reliably accounted for.

 

[Rock Knocker]

OK well i just did my test run but not everything went as planned. I zeroed in with some of my missmatched stuff, all of them had 24.5gr. varget but some of them had rem 7 1/2 primers and some CCI 400s, well all the CCI were flattened when the Rems didnt show any sign. My test loads were CCI primed in .3gr. incraments starting at 24.2 up to 26.0. even my lightest charge had flattened primers. so i shot untill i got some other confirmation of over pressure, and i got a fouled case at 25.4gr.

I need to know whats up with these CCI primers i used them because ive heard there good againts slam fires but they came out flat at the minimal charges. The only Rem primed rounds i had were charged with 24.5 gr. i wish i had more with larger charges to test them on. ether way 24.8gr seems to be close to the spot i want. i was getting .905 groups at 150 yards.

 

[jo191145]

CCI 450 Magnums are thick cup primers. Those are the ones you want in an AR for strength.
In that category also Rem 7.5 and Wolf Magnums(now called Tula I beleive) Tula? also makes a primer just for the AR now. Theres also a CCI military version for the AR (No. 41)
In (only a few) side by side comparison testing in bolt guns the No. 41 gives poor accuracy.

CCI 400's are quite anemic in comparison. Not surprising they flattened.

 

[Rock Knocker]

Huh... good to know. I didnt hear of the 450 before, or i just over looked it. Thanks for the help.