Best of the west TV show, long range shooting

[RichAllen]

This weekend I'm watching my usual hunting shows and "the Best of The West" comes on. For those of you that haven't seen this show, what they do is shoot game,deer elk ect) at extremely long ranges.
They were shooting bull elk at different ranges, one @ 875, 750 and 925 yards, all using a 6.5x284.

This show is basically an advertisement for the scopes the sell. There brand name is Huskemaw Optics. The scope looks like the biggest piece of junk I've ever seen but they were able to hit the targets they aimed at.
They also recommend that you buy the custom rifle from a company called Gun Werks.

Some of you may disagree but, I don't think it's ethical to take a shot on a large game animal @ 900 yards.
Here is a link to the show's website: http://www.thebestofthewest.net/mambo/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1&limit=6&limitstart=0
I just wanted to know if anyone has ever seen this show and if you had any comments on how their patented windage and elevation turrets work.
The elevation and windage knobs were on the same dial...... the whole thing is ridiculous but I'm hoping someone knows something about the windage/elevation system.

 

[habu]

FWIW --- i have to agree with rich on this one. how can you insure a good 'kill' shot at 900 yds with one shot? you can't! therefore, you are NOT a 'fair chase' hunter. you DON'T CARE about the kill, but just BRAGGING RIGHTS OF HITTING THE ANIMAL.

come out to the range and shoot with us and establish your 'rights' on paper rather than crippling an animal.

further, WHAT ARE THEY SHOOTING in that 6.5x284??? BARNES solids???

if you have ever shot an ELK [and skinned it out] you'll know he has at least 1/4" THICK HIDE! I DON'T BELEIVE ANY OF THE MAJOR BULLET MANUFATURES MAKE A 6.5 WITH A JACKET THICK ENOUGH TO WITHSTAND HIDE PENETRATION AND ACHIEVE LONG RANGE ACCURACY!

i would venture a guess that if the bullet got through the hide [without blowing up] and hit a rib, it would BLOW UP!

call me 'old fashion' but i would not [and never have] hunt BIG game with anything smaller than a 30 cal mag. [in some instances a .308/30-06 or 7mm mag] and keep my shoots 300 +/- or less.

could i shoot farther, yes. my qualifications: HIGH MASTER - LONG RANGE in high power, and awaiting MASTER card LONG RANGE in F- class. BUT, i could not insure a CLEAN 'KILLING' HIT at 900 on the first shot.

i think showing YAHOOS shooting big game at those ranges should be band from TV. IT'S HURTS THE HUNTING IMAGE MORE THEN HELPS in this age of ANTI-GUNNERS!

ron

 

[DaveJay]

i agree 100%
they shouldent be alowed to call that a huntin show..
that should be right next to chuck noris and the shawamie brit guy with ther info shows.. thats all it is.. if he got paid 1$ evey time he said the scope and bullet maker.. he would get paid more than i do in a week...

 

[RichAllen]

Ron,

The are using Berger VLD's in their ammunition.
They also shoot 7mm mag, 6.8x284, Ackley improved, 308 ect.
It just so happens during this show they were using the 6.5x284.

They had segment that explained how to find the BC using a chron. And basically were kletting you know that ammunition for the long range guns needed to be hand loaded.
If you don't hand load, your in luck!, they also sell ammunition.

The optics utilized a ballistic plex with vertical has marks on the horizontal plane.
First, using a range finder you get the correct distance of your target, next you dial the turret on top of the scope to the correct yardage,the turret has visible yardage marks, so if your target is 725 yards you turn the dial to the 725 yard mark....), next comes the tricky part... If you have a cross wind say 15 mph, all you have to do is look above the 725 yardage mark and it tells you what hash mark to use for every 5 mph of wind.

The problem with this whole thing...,besides the misleading) is that individuals will be tempted to take long range shots at 1000 lb animals, most likely mortally wounding them but not until they run off 5 miles.

I hunt more than most and I spend way too much time in the field. I'm hunting elk, deer and moose this season. I really got worried because my brother called me up at home telling me what a great scope he thought they had. :-/


Rich

 

[RichAllen]

Their site takes a minute or so to load so don't get discouraged.
Here a link to the scope scope: http://www.thebestofthewest.net/mambo/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=30&category_id=9&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1


The vertical hash marks on the horizontal plex are your windage elevations. Notice that there are only three marks each side of the vertical line.

How can you get accurate results from only having three marks?
They took a balloon filled with water and placed it across the canyon, during a no wind situation they popped the balloon first try. Later that evening during a 15 mph wind, they simply held the scope to one of the hash marks and popped it 725 yards away in a 15 mph wind.
Very impressive if the system actually works, I was hoping someone in the shooting community knew more about it and if a similar system could work 1000 BR.

 

[EricStecker]

The question of what is an ethical distance to shoot an animal should be answered by the ability of the hunter to consistently hit the animal in a place that will kill them quickly. For some hunters this is 100 yards while for others it is much further.

The Best of the West does focus its message on the long range hunter. Those who watch the show regularly know that they frequently talk about having the right equipment and putting the time into practice so that the hunter knows he can make shots.

I find it hard to believe that a High Master would question the ability to hit the kill zone of an animal with a tuned rifle and a good scope at long distance. You do it regularly with open sights. They had to make the scoring rings smaller in F-Class because no one was dropping points at 1,000 yards,that's a 10 inch circle easily the size of a kill zone on an animal). Keep in mind they are using match grade components,not Barnes).

Should NASCAR not show cars traveling well above the speed limit because people are killed in car accidents where speeding is involved. My point is there are skilled and ethical hunters who are taking game at longer ranges because they have the equipment and ability to do so properly. The hunter who is out there giving hunters a bad name does not need The Best of the West to behave improperly.

To suggest that The Best of the West is responsible for poor hunting practices is the same as blaming fast food restraunts for making fat people.

Additionally, comments made about their rifles and scopes should be made by only those who have used them personally. To say that their scope "looks like the biggest piece of junk I've ever seen" without ever using the scope is an exaggerated use of words in an effort to make a weak point.

Regards,
Eric

 

[BillK]

Eric-Well said and thank you!!!!

 

[RichAllen]

I'm trying to point out that the scope will not work accurately as described.
I've been in this game long enough to know how to dope the wind and know the difficulty in doing so.
Your not going to learn how to shoot long range by watching a DVD and going to the range a couple times.

If you go back and read my post, I never said the shooter on the show was an inexperienced marksman nor that they made unethical shots on game. My problem lies with the people this type of hype attracts. Obviously buying a system that cannot possibly work as described and attempting long range hunting on big game is a recipe for disaster.

I don't know how much BR shooting you've done but 1000 yard shots are missed every BR event I attend. If a skilled BR shooter can miss by a couple feet a hunter shooting off sticks is likely to miss more often and by further amounts.
Obviously you like the show, that's fine.... if you want to shoot squeaks @ 800 yards then go right ahead, just please don't compare an open sight palma shooter to some clown sitting on the couch watching TV, that's a joke.

I could care less if the guys on BOTW are the greatest long range shooters in the world, the show is a advertisement for long range rifle scopes. There not the ones buying the junk,,yes, I said it's junk) You may think selling these is ethical but IMO, it's thinking like yours that gets people in trouble, or worse.


Rich

 

[Badlands]

I have watched the show and I shoot 1,000 yd. BR with a guy who has done this type of hunting. I have to admit I have missed a lot of 900yd.
Prairie dog shots, but a skilled hunter with the right equipment can do well with Prairie Dogs or big game. Some guys are hitting Prairie Dogs at 2,000 yds. - I think an Elk at 800yds. should not be that big a problem. I think Eric has the right answer.

 

[EricStecker]

Rich,

Your entire position is based on the fact that your opinion of match shooters is much higher than your opinion of hunters. What makes you think that hunters are less than you in ability and mental prowess?

don't compare an open sight palma shooter to some clown sitting on the couch watching TV

Your assumptions that the hunters who are interested in this type of shooting are "clowns" is way out of line. They have top notch gear and the skills to match.

I'm trying to point out that the scope will not work accurately as described.

How would you know this? You have never used their scope. There are many who do and are very successful with it.

Your not going to learn how to shoot long range by watching a DVD and going to the range a couple times.

How many ways are there to learn how to shoot long range? First you have to learn about it,using reference materials including DVDs) then you have to go do it. Seems to me this is the only way to learn how to shoot long range.

My problem lies with the people this type of hype attracts. Obviously buying a system that cannot possibly work as described and attempting long range hunting on big game is a recipe for disaster.

I do not believe you because you have no credible evidence that what you are saying is true. As I said before you cannot blame a hunting show for a given hunters poor behavior. Your comments are borderline lampooning a group that is nothing like you describe and using equipment that does work and work well. I suspect that you have other motives for making such strongly exaggerated statements.

After watching The Best of the West how did you make the mental leap from what they are doing on the show to this massive group of "clowns" who can't scratch their butt with both hands running around the hills getting as far away from the animal as they can so that they can miss. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but that is quite an irrational indictment of a group of folks who I strongly believe you have misrepresented.

Regards,
Eric

 

[RichAllen]

Gerry,

i think Eric has a point and I didn't post it as well as I should.

I think there are many experienced long ranged hunters that could pull of a shot @ 800 yards on a elk or mule deer. My problem was directly with the equipment they were using and selling to the public as the answer to pull off those kinds of shots.

The reticle and the system does not and cannot accurately work as described. With only three hash marks to judge winds up to 30 mph @ 1000 yards I don't think it's possible.

Crack pots are a dime a dozen and the tell of the one that got away are always to rememberable.
My own brother called me last Sunday regarding this system, it looks great on TV but I challenge the products working ability.

I'm sure all the guys on the show know how to shoot, just like every lip stick commercial has a beautiful model with thick lips on display.
That same lip stick doesn't look or work on my secretary.

Rich

 

[EricStecker]

Rich,

I am going to say this one last time regarding your statement below. You seem stuck in a rut on this point.

The reticle and the system does not and cannot accurately work as described. With only three hash marks to judge winds up to 30 mph @ 1000 yards I don't think it's possible.

You do not know this to be true. This scope has been used successfully on many hunts and by many hunters. This result does not support your opinion. Just because you don't think its possible doesn't mean it's not.

Regards,
Eric

 

[7run]

Rich, I don't mean to pile on but if you have watched the show more than once you would realize that these guys are about ethical shots. On more then one show the staff of best or the west have passed up shots on animal's at less then 300yds because of the conditions wind rain ect. As for the scope it will work as suggested because the turret is made for that specific gun. when having a turret made they want the velocity, altitude and BC of the bullet. Saying this will not work is like saying programs like exbal are no good. i recently had a 7rum made, worked up a 1/2 moa load typed the data into my program and easily moved to a grand and shot 3 different moa groups. Of coarse it is up to the individual to know their limits and practice practice practice. This is a good thing for our sport. Most people don't know that shooting sports like 1000br exsist and to bring it into the norm i think can only be good.

 

[ballistic64]

how can you insure a good 'kill' shot at 900 yds with one shot? you can't!
ron

As opposed to the hunter that pulls his gun out of the closet once a year for his 100-200 yd shot,possibly after party time at the deer camp the previous night?

 

[people]

RichAllen "if you want to shoot squeaks @ 800 yards..."

What is a "squeaks"?

Back when I had a 50BMG I shot many Coyotes at 800 to 1,100 yds with regularity. I also have shot a few deer at those ranges. If you know your stuff and how your gun shoots it is easy.

With that said if you are a tool it is very easy to cripple a critter at any range.

 

[nonliberal]

I see truth in what both sides of the discussion are saying. First off I know of two very distinctly different types of hunters here in MO.
1. There is the type that takes it very seriously, he is out scouting in the middle of summer regardless of the heat and swarm of insects, he knows the exact animal he plans to shoot long before the season begins, He spends all the time at the range it takes to be comfortable with the shot he plans on taking, he knows the land and all surrounding areas and how to use them to his advantage, and in all his free time during the off season he is reading, researching, reloading, shooting, etc, just to pass the time until the next hunting season.

2. This group are the ones that get off work and stop off at the gas station to buy their deer tag and 2 cases of beer on the way to deer camp. They drink all night and then walk out in the woods often times going to sleep,if we're lucky) as soon as they get settled in. The preparation for this trip consisted of buying a box of shells and using half of them to zero the scope, the other half is for hunting. They have a total of 10 rounds under there belt for the year and don't have a clue about ballistics, wind, effective range, trajectory, and MOA is just something printed on the scope under the cap.

I guess it would depend on which group of hunters you know to help decide which side of this fence you stand on.

I can see where this would be a good show for someone in group #1 but I would not want someone in group #2 to watch it because it just means I need to fear him from a longer distance.

Its true though that it doesn't take a show to make someone do something stupid, and I hear you cant fix stupid either.

 

[CatShooter]

Man...

This topic always draws blood,not with the game, with the posters ).

I would like to point out a few things that have been clouded with rhetoric.

Whether 1,000 yd BR or other match shooters miss or not is not relevant to this subject.

The match shooter goes to the match and MUST shoot the wind conditions that prevail,that's a pun, son).

You get a 15 mph, 3 o'clock wind, you shoot the match, or take your ammo and go home.

You can't decide to shoot targets that are 90° to the shooting line, because you want a 0° wind correction.

You can't move your shooting position off to the right about 1,400 yds, cuz you want to be shooting with the wind at your back.

But when hunting, you can pick your targets and change your location any time you want.

When you are hunting, you have choices, both in where you position yourself, and whether or not you shoot at all.

Also... no serious long range shooter uses a "reticle" for long range shots - they dial in the elevation, with an accurate elevation turret,that has been checked for tracking accuracy and crabbing).

And they use top of the line rangefinders.

So if you wanna debate this, that's cool, but don't cloud the issue with anecdotes about the wind at 1,000 yd matches or BR shooting, cuz they don't translate.

I don't have a dog in this fight, I don't shoot elk at any range...

... but I do shoot ground hogs and crows at God awful ranges


.

 

[habu]

i stand on what i posted. i'm not debating the long range shooting - which everyone seems to debate. but the other end - CLEAN KILLS - that's the point! [and these guys are selling a product]

Elk with very thick hides and big strong bones are not like thin skinned 'oties' or 'wisslers'.

you have to have a BIG STRONG BULLET to do the work needed [meaning getting inside and breaking things]. at long range you cannot come close to a good KILL % using target bullets no matter how you load them.

eric, you know better than anyone that if you push a bullet to hard [in order to get down range muzzle energy/velucity] you will push the core right out of the jacket. that's my point - what the bullet will do down range. [and thanks for the sponsorship of the f-class team].

and to those who are offended by my lack of political correctness - sorry, a spade is still a spade.

regards ron

 

[cliffe]

a fast 6.5-284 at 900 yards would be under 1000 foot pounds of energy. always read 1500 was the magic number for enough energy left to dispatch an elk. 2000 yard prairie dogs???!!! no wonder there is so many,you guys need to get closer so you can actually improve your hits to miss ratio. if you can hit a p-dog at 2000 yards you must be the man!!!the heck with trophy hunting, just trophy shoot anything at long range and i hope you get it,really i hope you do get it,cause at that distance maybe trying to get closer would be a better idea...... cliffe

 

[EricStecker]

Ron,

I appreciate what you are saying but the bullets that are being used by The Best of the West don't act like you think they do. They also act very differently than "typical" hunting bullets. Let me explain how the Berger VLD works on game.

Upon impact the VLD will penetrate 2" to 3" through tissue and bone,this has been proven many times in animals, media and at a full range of velocities down to 1,800 fps). After penetration the bullet will start to come apart shedding 40% to 85% of its mass as shrapnel.

The shrapnel and remaining bullet piece will travel 13" to 15" through the internal organs creating a tremendous amount of tissue damage. This massive amount of internal damage usually puts the animal into shock which drops them in their tracks. Those animals that manage to stay on their feet will go down quickly due to major organ failure,destruction) or rapid loss of blood pressure.

This result happens consistently at feet away or at 1,000 yards,impact velocity will affect the amount of shrapnel created). Instead of a tough bullet crashing through the animal like an arrow to go out the other side you have a grenade that penetrates into the vital area before it goes off. This makes for a very quick kill.

Those who have tried them on game become believers after the first shot. I'll admit that some hunters don't like using the Berger VLD because it causes TOO MUCH internal damage. Everyone has their druthers but putting an animal down fast is my idea of a the perfect end to a successful hunt.

We are happy to support the US F-Class Team and thank you for mentioning it. This group consists of top notch shooters committed to winning. My kind of folks.

Regards,
Eric