best headspace gauge

[gilmillan1]

I barely started reading the thread, and I realize i was not clear enough as to what i was asking.

I was referring to a gauge to measure the shoulder of a piece of brass when contemplating on bumping the shoulder 2 thousands.

I have a hornady kid that measures the shoulder of the brass but I need something more accurate than the hornady.

I am terribly sorry about the confusion.

 

[CatShooter]

I barely started reading the thread, and I realize i was not clear enough as to what i was asking.

I was referring to a gauge to measure the shoulder of a piece of brass when contemplating on bumping the shoulder 2 thousands.

I have a hornady kid that measures the shoulder of the brass but I need something more accurate than the hornady.

I am terribly sorry about the confusion.

Not to worry...

You can make the Hornady work for you. First, there is nothing "magic" about 2 thou. Everyone (almost) says to bump 2 thou. From where? It is like saying "Go 2 miles to get to Dallas"... but from what start?

Shoot your cases until they start to show resistance to bolt closure - at that point, THEN measure the "headspace" with the Hornady, and start turning the FL die down 1/72nd of a turn, and try another case. Keep doing this until the bolt closes on the case with slight resistance - measure the case and write it down... keep that as your measurement.

Even if you have a real headspace gauge, it will not change what you are trying to do - you want the case as long as possible, without causing difficulty in closing the bolt. That way, you will not have case stretching and head separations.

 

[fguffey]

Before SAAMI, there are head space gages that are marked, the length is different and the diameter is different, the diameter matches the shoulder/case body diameter and the length is measured from that datum.

Moving the datum changed nothing but the 'measured from'.

You can make a bump die out of a neck size die by taking 14 thou off the bottom of the die.

No, you can, I know better. to bump the shoulder the case body requires case body support. The neck sizing die does not have case body support, there is something about datums you do not understand.

F. Guffey

 

[CatShooter]

Before SAAMI, there are head space gages that are marked, the length is different and the diameter is different, the diameter matches the shoulder/case body diameter and the length is measured from that datum.

Moving the datum changed nothing but the 'measured from'.

You can make a bump die out of a neck size die by taking 14 thou off the bottom of the die.

No, you can, I know better. to bump the shoulder the case body requires case body support. The neck sizing die does not have case body support, there is something about datums you do not understand.

F. Guffey

Jesus, guffy... does it ever stop with you....

With Forster bump dies (Forster is the ONLY company that makes real "bump" dies)... the die body does not support, or even touch the case body at all.

Call Forster tech support before you make up dopey garbage like this.

Their phone number is - (815) 493-6360

With any other die that hits the shoulder, you are FL sizing, not "bumping".


Now, STOP IT... you are being a real jerk.

 

[fguffey]

With any other die that hits the shoulder, you are FL sizing, not "bumping".

Bumping is not something I do, you can, I know better, it is impossible to bump the shoulder without case body support. Back to 'something you do not understand about datums'.

With any other die that hits the shoulder, you are FL sizing, not "bumping".

Reloaders are conditioned to claim "they bump the shoulder .002". I set a die on the shoulder of the case without case body support the case body increases in diameter and shortens between the shoulder and case head.

F. Guffey

 

[bigedp51]

I barely started reading the thread, and I realize i was not clear enough as to what i was asking.

I was referring to a gauge to measure the shoulder of a piece of brass when contemplating on bumping the shoulder 2 thousands.

I have a hornady kid that measures the shoulder of the brass but I need something more accurate than the hornady.

I am terribly sorry about the confusion.

Below a Colt 5.56 Field gauge, 1.4736

Below the Field gauge in my Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge that was adjusted to read actual headspace.

How accurate do you need, my Lyman calipers are accurate to .0005 and the brass will continue to "spring back" after sizing.
You stated you want to bump the shoulders .002 so your not dealing with a critical fit when full length resizing.
You could use Redding Competition shell holders and be close enough to your desired shoulder bump.

Below a fired case from my AR15 carbine.

Below the same case after full length resizing and .003 shoulder bump.

The actual accuracy isn't the Hornady gauge, it is the accuracy of the vernier calipers and the person taking the measurments.

I went from a dial caliper to digital caliper to make it easier for my chronologically gifted eyesight and accuracy readings of the gauge.

Also remember you can measure the case right after sizing and the brass will continue to spring back depending on the softness of the brass.

 

[CatShooter]

With any other die that hits the shoulder, you are FL sizing, not "bumping".

Bumping is not something I do, you can, I know better, it is impossible to bump the shoulder without case body support. Back to 'something you do not understand about datums'.

With any other die that hits the shoulder, you are FL sizing, not "bumping".

Reloaders are conditioned to claim "they bump the shoulder .002". I set a die on the shoulder of the case without case body support the case body increases in diameter and shortens between the shoulder and case head.

F. Guffey

Nonsense - you know nothing about bump dies and bumping - call Forster - they invented the bump die... or maybe, while you have them on the phone, you can explain to them how they are doing it all wrong, and help them fix their dies....

 

[bigedp51]

With any other die that hits the shoulder, you are FL sizing, not "bumping".

Bumping is not something I do, you can, I know better, it is impossible to bump the shoulder without case body support. Back to 'something you do not understand about datums'.

With any other die that hits the shoulder, you are FL sizing, not "bumping".

Reloaders are conditioned to claim "they bump the shoulder .002". I set a die on the shoulder of the case without case body support the case body increases in diameter and shortens between the shoulder and case head.

F. Guffey

fguffey

You can bump, push, shove, move the case shoulder anywhere between the blue and green dotted lines and the shoulder is supported.

And all the dies below will "bump" the shoulder and support the shoulder.

CatShooter you beat me by seconds but as usual my posts have drawings and photos because I have two dyslexic typing fingers. (and a picture is worth a thousand words)

 

[fguffey]

You can bump, push, shove, move the case shoulder anywhere between the blue and green dotted lines and the shoulder is supported.

You can, you insist, I said I can not shorten the case between the shoulder and case head without case body support.

anywhere between the blue and green dotted lines and the shoulder is supported

I am sure that makes sense to you but it does not to me.

F. Guffey

 

[CatShooter]

You can bump, push, shove, move the case shoulder anywhere between the blue and green dotted lines and the shoulder is supported.

You can, you insist, I said I can not shorten the case between the shoulder and case head without case body support.

F. Guffey

You REALLY need to call Forster - you look (and sound) sillier and sillier with each post.

 

['Freak]

Like’s been said, sorta, you’ll need to shoot full pressure loads (‘bout like the factory stuff) probably a couple or three times to ever have the brass expanded to the point that after the tiny bit of spring back it’s completely filling the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder. That’ll be zero clearance left between the bolt face and base of the case while the case shoulder is butted to the chamber’s shoulder, or zero headspace with that piece of brass.

This is the brass you’ll want to measure and record ‘the number’ for future reference, its length from base of the case to the shoulder, per your choice of instruments and methods that you’ll be using in the same way every time. Armed with ‘the number’ for that particular chamber, now you can adjust the die to bump back the shoulder just enough so when that brass is chambered you’ll have however much clearance you want left between the bolt face and base of the case while the shoulders are butted together. Done so, your base to shoulder number from properly shoulder bumped brass plus the desired amount of clearance = ‘the number’.

Some folk want zero clearance along with anywhere from only a little to a lot of crush of the brass on closing the bolt. Others prefer at least some and/or on up to ~ .002” clearance, I’m one good with anything in between some and ~ .002”. There will be no crush on closing of the bolt and not an excessive amount of clearance. IMO, sufficient but not excessive clearance is better than quite possibly varying amounts of too long brass resulting in varying degrees of crush on closing the bolt and so also varying degrees of stress being thrown back at the action from your binding of the bolt, forcing it to close on a too long piece of brass. Keep lengths very consistent and a little crush always the same probably won't matter, I dunno.

 

[ridgeway]

I barely started reading the thread, and I realize i was not clear enough as to what i was asking.

I was referring to a gauge to measure the shoulder of a piece of brass when contemplating on bumping the shoulder 2 thousands.

I have a hornady kid that measures the shoulder of the brass but I need something more accurate than the hornady.

I am terribly sorry about the confusion.

Have your smith make you a stub using the chamber reamer that was used to chamber your barrel. This will be the exactly the same as your chamber. A stub is basically a small peice of barrel about an inch long and the reamer is used to cut shoulder depth. Insert your case and measure the overall length. You can use either calipers or a micrometer.

 

[comagutsa]

I barely started reading the thread, and I realize i was not clear enough as to what i was asking.

I was referring to a gauge to measure the shoulder of a piece of brass when contemplating on bumping the shoulder 2 thousands.

I have a hornady kid that measures the shoulder of the brass but I need something more accurate than the hornady.

I am terribly sorry about the confusion.

i still stand by by what i said the RCBS one ..see i was right ;D

 

[fguffey]

You REALLY need to call Forster - you look (and sound) sillier and sillier with each post.

Catfish, silly was your statement about checking a neck sizing die with a head space gage. All that is required to check the ability of a die to size a case to minimum length is with a head space gage and shell holder.

Remove the primer punch/sizer ball assemble then insert the head space gage, the reloader can measure the protrusion of the gage or use a shell holder. Some shell holder4s will not fit the gage, for those with shop skill that should not be a problem, It is possible to use a larger shell holder, all the reloader has to keep up with is the deck height of the shell holder.

Ed claimed shoulder support, I insist I am saying case body support. The seating die does not have case body support. Crimping bottle neck cases is a bad habit, it is about discipline, to crimp bottle neck cases the cases should be trimmed to the same length. All that is required to crush the shoulder/case body juncture of the case when crimping is a very small but excessive crimp.

Then we have another thread about "My reloads will not chamber without resistance to bolt closing.

I have turned cases into bellows, I have cases that have been turned into accordion looking cases. For a different reason, it had to do with annealing and cases that were said to be too work hardened. When I crushed the cases (without case body support) I formed bellows below the shoulder, in the press it felt like bricks crushing. When I shorten a case between the shoulder and case head the case supports the press until it begins to collapse. the case takes on the appearance of an accordion with bellows when it collapses.

Bellows: As opposed to What? A case that is work hardened could split and or crush.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Have your smith make you a stub using the chamber reamer that was used to chamber your barrel. This will be the exactly the same as your chamber. A stub is basically a small peice of barrel about an inch long and the reamer is used to cut shoulder depth. Insert your case and measure the overall length. You can use either calipers or a micrometer.

It is possible to use a Wilson Case gage, to do so requires a little shop skill savvy. then there are take off barrels and barrels that are shot out, I have purchased a few for #5.00, cut the stub off. I have new barrels with finish chambers.

Most smiths that make the stub with the cut chamber make it like a tight Wilson case gage with the case head flat with the end of the gage.. They refer to it as being a chamber gage. I try to match case head protrusion of the chamber with the gage.

The easy one is the Mauser action, .110" plus clearance between the case head and bolt face/

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

i like the RCBS Precision mic
great bit of gear for headspace

I still stand by what I said the RCBS one ..see I was right

I have one RCBS precision mic in 223 Remington. It works but as Catfish said, it is not a head space gage, it is a case length gage. When the precision gage is used the reloader is measuring the effect the chamber had on the case when fired. The video makes a good point when measuring the length of the new minimum length/full length sized case before firing. If I found new factory ammo that was shorter in length from the shoulder to the case head as in the .0035 he referred to I would add case head clearance, I know that makes no sense to anyone but if I had a chamber that was .001" shorter than a no go-gage chamber the .0035 would put me close to field reject length.

Again, I understand no one understand that, but to me it is important to understand how and where a case stretches. Before I would fire a case that was .010" shorter than the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face I would form cases to fit, as in forming cases that would off set the length of the chamber.

I have one rifle that has a chamber that is .002" longer than a field reject chamber, not a problem, I form 280 Remington cases to 30/06 with .014" added between the shoulder to the case head, that leaves me with the magic .002" bump and cam over other reloaders get, AND?

Difference? I supported the case body while forming the shouler .014" forward of the 30/06 chamber and .037" behind the 280 Remington shoulder.

G. Guffey

 

[RandyM72]

Actually, what I said IS true.

As usual, you did not understand what was said, and your reply is incoherent jibberish.

The standing deck height of a shell holder is 0.125", which means that if you put a headspace gauge into a
FL or Neck size die, and measure the part of the gauge that sticks out of the die, and subtract 0.125",
you get the headspace of the die.

It is not rocket science... it is eaasy peasy, STANDARD technique for reloaders.

Please try to pay attention next time.

Catshooter. Your explanation is a good one. Quality firearms in the target/hunter target category have snug SAAMI dimensions and headspace is becoming a more common problem with reloading cases-especially fired from another rifle, so I have recently learned.

 

[RegionRat]

@RandyM72 , nothing wrong with dredging up an old thread, but this one is >5 years old and many of the folks who posted are no longer with us.
If you hover over the names, you can get an idea of their last activity on the forum. If someone is not longer with us, or not active, there isn't much point to replying to them. I see you are new, welcome aboard. Carry On.

 

[quest450]

I know that makes no sense to anyone but

Again, I understand no one understand that, but to me it is important to understand how and where a case stretches.

G. Guffey

Lol, a classic guffey

 

[danny]

Dave Manson for headspace gauges...

Danny