Best Dies for Semi-Auto?

[Phil3]

Hi,

I am new to reloading and am looking to find the best dies to construct the most accurate ammunition possible for a custom built AR15, that was built to deliver maximum possible accuracy off a bench. It uses a Krieger heavy barrel,1:9 twist, 22' long), chambered in .223 Remington,not 5.56 NATO), which has been cut on the minimum side of SAAMI specs, shooting 55 - 69 grain bullets.

I am mostly perplexed over the dies. Redding says to use the FL sizing and competition seater dies, but suspect this was a standard answer for conventional AR15s. Would other dies,neck, bushing, etc.), give me a bit more control over the cartridge and accuracy, while not sacrificing reliability in the semi-auto? As long as the gun does not beat up the brass to bad, I would probably use Lapua brass.

I plan to buy a Forster Co-Ax press.

Thank you.

- Phil

 

[JJH]

You may have to use a small-base FL die for the sizing work, but you should be able to use any seater, preferably a moicrometer seater.

 

[Phil3]

I forgot to mention that Krieger said that a small base should not be needed. The Krieger rep I spoke to did say that he personally needed to use such a die in his gun with a Krieger barrel, but he later found out that the die he was using was out of spec.

- Phil

 

[Winchester69]

How about a Forster die set? Brass life is short in gas guns.

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

A gas gun will beat up the brass, and small bases dies are not normally necessary if you set your dies up correctly.

In addition, you should always f/l size for all gas guns.

 

[Phil3]

Why is the brass life short in gas guns? It would seem to be an expensive proposition to use Lapua brass if the life span is short.

I strongly considered Forster dies, but it seems people like Redding even more. I am open to Forster, but do they hold any advantage over the Redding for my application?

Thank you for your help.

- Phil

 

[nhm16]

Why is the brass life short in gas guns? It would seem to be an expensive proposition to use Lapua brass if the life span is short.

Because the cycling action in a semi-auto gun is not a gentle one. I have seen some of my cases come out with dented bodies.

I would just use new or once fired Lake City brass, using top-end brass on a semi-auto gun will get expensive quick, and will likely give little to no benefit. Lake City is cheap,see, e.g., Precision Brass), fairly consistent, and despite what is written they hold about as much powder as commercial brass, and I've been able to get at least 3-4 reloads out of mine. The only downside is that you have to remove the primer pocket crimp first time you prepare the cases, though it seems like most commercial .223 ammo now also has crimped primer pockets. Either the cheap Hornady reamer chucked into a drill, or the Dillon Super Swager should do the trick,in fact the Hornady is more consistent since it indexes off the bottom of the case).

I strongly considered Forster dies, but it seems people like Redding even more. I am open to Forster, but do they hold any advantage over the Redding for my application

I have Forster dies. For the seater, they are equivalent,Forster actually had the patent until it expired), except that the Forster micrometer seating die is 2/3rds the price of the Redding. Since you won't be using Redding's bushing neck sizing dies, the full length sizer are roughly equivalent too except for cost. Also, consider the Lee Factory Crimp die if you want to crimp your cases.

 

[fdshuster]

A few years ago, got the bright idea,?) of using the Redding bushing die that's used for my 223 bolt guns, for the Compass Lake built, Krieger barreled AR. Everything carefully measured & adjusted accordingly, and in one of the rapid fire strings of a NRA Hi Power Match, experienced my first ever failures of the bolt to fully close. I'm talking thousands of rounds fired since 1995 without ever having a single failure/alibi called. Needless to say, returned to the 'conventional' die set & have had no problems since. Lapua brass is kept for the bolt guns only & use Lake City, Black Hills & Winchester for the ARs. Die set is the Redding and I do use the floating carbide button on the expander rod, but with lube,Imperial wax). Since a variety of bullets and seating depths are used, the Forster micrometer benchrest seater die is used, as mentioned above at a good cost savings over another brand. Have loaded for semi-autos since the late 1960s,MI Garand), and ARs since 1995, and have never crimped a single round, and except as noted above, have never had an ammunition related stoppage. Using match bullets exclusevly, without a crimping cannalure, so crimping has never been a consideration, never saw a need for it. Works for me.

 

[cmillard]

if you are going to magazine seating deapth, use a redding or forster fl die. you could also fl neck size, but be sure to get the right size bushing for at least .003 grip on the bullet. bullet setback can be BAD when shooting an autoloader at or near max pressure and you need to maintain proper tension on the bullet. but if you are going to single shot, do some neck only sizing. the first thing i do when i get a new fl die is to polish the expander with some 800 grit emery, it smoothes up the sizing process a bit.

 

[Phil3]

It would appear then that the full length bushing die, with an aim to tightly control the neck diameter, may be pushing reliable loading with an AR. Sounds like a standard FL sizing die, and a micrometer type bullet seater will deliver highest quality ammo that an AR could reliably use. The AR will not be used for rapid fire, just bench rest, but I would want reliable loading.

- Phil

 

[markr]

As far as I'm concerned, how you do it depends on what you're going to use it for.
If used exclusively for punching tiny groups or target work, do all of the things necessary to make your ammunition accurate...i.e. good segregated brass all trimmed to the same length and sorted and re-sized the minimum needed for sure function.
If you're loading SHTF ammo...use a small base resizer as insurance and crimp!
Mark

 

[Phil3]

I am going for tiny groups. That is why I was looking at these higher end dies and methods. - Phil

 

[FTRshooter]

I have about the same rifle you are describing except that I requested Krieger to chamber the barrel with their 556 NATO match. It's a very tight chamber, but it has a long leade and that was what I wanted since I shoot 80gr bullets in my Match AR.

In fact the chamber was so tight, the brass I was using before would not chamber in this new barrel. I was using a Redding F/L Type S die up to that point and I bought the small base version. I also bought an S/B body die trying to rescue some of my existing brass. I could not recover the Lapua and so I use that brass in my Wylde chambered service rifle. I bought lots of Winchester and I always resize with the small base bushing die. I have never had a problem.

Now for brass life. I run over one thousand cases of Winchester brass,all bought new) and on a few boxes, I have 5 loadings on the brass, and it still looks great. I took the time to deal with the ejection cycle. First I use a C/S spring in the buffer, which is stiffer than normal and keeps its 'spring' a lot longer than piano wire springs. This help slow down the BCG. Next, I installed a CWS in the carrier, with the heaviest insert. The combination of those two steps makes the brass come out about 3 feet from the rifle at the 4 o'clock position. Never a dinged case. The third item is the use of a Bob Sled to load the ammo. In fact, I just push the cartridge into the chamber then I close the bolt, but the sled makes this very easy.

Seater dies is Redding Competition.

Finally, I think the ammo and rifle is fairly accurate, you can check with WalkerTexasRanger.

 

[markr]

FTRshooter, I, like you, have not had trouble at all with case life using a SB resizing die, although I really don't try to set any world records for the most reloadings out of a batch of brass. I realize that semi auto platforms are not real brass friendly any way, especially my M1A's. I really don't see the point in trying to over use my brass, I'll load them 3 or 4 times and then deligate them to one last loading as SHTF ammo.
I did an accuracy test awhile back using minimaly sized brass and that resized in the SB die and I really couldn't tell any difference out to 300 yds. which is the most that I have available locally. My stock of barrels are all set up the same, for use with the 69 gr. SMK loaded to fit the magazine and they work equally well with the Hornady 75 match too.
To me...reliability of my weapons is the first concern. Caling an alibi in a real life situation may just cost you yours!

 

[ForneyRider]

I went from Lee deluxe rifle die set to Redding f/l bushing match die set with micrometer seating die.

I got more consistent seating depth with Redding seater die.

I like both sets, depending on what you want and your budget.

The brass is torn up quite a bit. I use Remington and LC mainly. I use a brass catcher and the brass bangs into each other.

 

[fdshuster]

markr: The original question mentioned accuracy being the main concern, meaning, I would think the use of match quality bullets, like Sierra MatchKings (the 69 gr. #1380 as a fine example), and those like the vast majority of Sierra bullets, both Match & Gameking, do not have a crimping cannalure groove, so how do you apply a crimp? ???

 

[fdshuster]

phil: A really great book (IMO) especially as it relates to accuracy loading 223 Rem. for the AR-15, is " The Competitive AR-15: The Mouse That Roared", by Glenn Zediker, 416 pages, softcover, available from Midway (and elsewhere) #276-404, $23.99. Everytime I sit down and re-read it, I learn more. A good portion of the info applies to other cartridges also, not just the 223.

 

[KevinThomas]

A good call, Frank. I'd recommend Glen's book, as well as those by Feamster and Derrick Martin as the "must reads" for anyone getting into loading for the Service Rifles. Like it or not, loading for semi-autos is advanced handloading and has some very special requirements attached. They're not bolt guns, and the shouldn't be loaded lie bolt guns. The brass life in an AR isn't that bad (compared to the 3 firing max for an M14), but they're not gentile on the brass, by any means. Glen has another book, "Handloading for Competition" that's also a great read. He discusses, at length, many of the specialized requirements for gas guns.

Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA

 

[markr]

markr: The original question mentioned accuracy being the main concern, meaning, I would think the use of match quality bullets, like Sierra MatchKings (the 69 gr. #1380 as a fine example), and those like the vast majority of Sierra bullets, both Match & Gameking, do not have a crimping cannalure groove, so how do you apply a crimp? ???

I said: "If you're loading SHTF ammo...use a small base resizer as insurance and crimp"!
My SHTF loads are 62 gr. M109 bullets. I don't crimp the 69 gr. SMK's. I do know a couple of people that use a Lee factory crimp die with the 69 SMK's (very very lightly crimped) though and they have terriffic results. They say that they get more consistant ignition this way...

 

[fdshuster]

markr: O.K., now that I figured out what SHTF means (I'm a slow learner), it becomes clearer, and would agree it may provide a little "extra" assurance of reliability. That being said though, anytime I'm using the expensive match quality bullets, like the Sierra and Berger, and ?, I would never apply any type of a crimp what-so-ever, and I don't care whose die is applying the crimp. For that "type" of ammo, I believe the standard sizing die leaves the case neck with plenty of bullet pull that a crimp becomes unnecessary, while not damaging the bullet jacket.