Berger VLD Target vs. Hunting bullet?

[Kenny474]

RonAKA, John Burns at GreyBull Precision has based his whole business around building a complete extreme range hunting system with high precision rifles, custom optics using turrets with yardage marks calibrated to custom loaded ammunition with Berger Hunting bullets.

I have read a few articles about the company, and they have 1000+ yard confirmed clean kills on large game using their own custom built 7mm Rem Mag and .243 Win rifles and calibrated optics.

Super long shots are becoming more common and there are companies that are providing the average Joe with the equipment necessary to make shots like this possible. GreyBull has a few videos of some long range kills on their site, GreyBullPrecicion.com, including a 728 yard Black Bear kill by John Burns.

You are far from senile, but extreme long range kill shots are taken and are becoming more common every year. I would expect with the advancements in optic technology and bullet drop compensation turrets and the superb rifles and bullets that are available that shots like these are here to stay and are no longer things of legend.

 

[M700]

The problem I see with this, is so many guys trying to buy their way into the long-range hunting club with big scopes, fancy rifles and still - not enough time at the range.

There's a certain amount of skill and knowledge to reading the wind, reading the mirage, and being able to accurately place that round, particularly from a field position. That stuff can't be simply plugged into a ballistics calculator. Maybe someday...

Meanwhile, I'll continue to use Berger VLD's for a fair bit of my hunting, and Noslers as it suits me as well.

Regards, Guy

 

[necchi]

The problem I see with this, is so many guys trying to buy their way into the long-range hunting club with big scopes, fancy rifles and still - not enough time at the range.

Every Year, just before season, there is ALWAYS at least 5 guy's, trying too sight in the Brand New rifle and scope on the 50yrd range, trying to move their "group" 4"s up and 5"s left by turning the adjustment knobs 4 clicks up and 5 clicks left. And they just got this gun cause their "Going out West" :

And don't forget all the show's on TV that tell ya how easy it is,,just call the sponser and book YOUR hunt.

 

[EricStecker]

I know that long range hunting is a hotly debated subject these days with strong opinions on both sides. With all hunting at all distances you have those who do it right and those who don't. Such is life.

The important fact in my mind is that long range hunting is here to stay and growing fast whether you like it or not. We should be spending our time and energy working to properly educate those who want to pursue this effort rather than trying to talk them out of doing so.

Telling folks how wrong it is and that they shouldn't do it is similar to telling folks some years back that they don't need an internal combustion engine vehicle because a horse will get you where you need to go just fine.

Regards,
Eric

 

[M700]

Which is exactly why my 19 year old son is hitting the range with me in a bit for some 300 - 600 yard shooting this morning!

We've got some mule deer & black bear hunting areas where a longish shot is often required, so we like to stay sharp out there.

Regards, Guy

 

[distinguished]

Taking a long range shot at game involves both skill and ethics. As a highmaster and distinguished rifleman, I have the skills necessary to make shots at distance. I will not shoot at an animal just to say I made the shot at xxxx yards.
A hunter should get close enough to be absolutely certain of his shot placement. That said, when you consider the cost of a hunt including time, equip.,travel, licence, etc.
why would anyone skimp on any component.
Use the best and most accurate ammo for your rifle. I plan to use Bergers this year because they are giving me the best groups with the rifle I plan to use. Other rifles may prefer other bullets and in that case that is what I would choose.

 

[falconpilot]

I hunt with a friend who is all about long range hunting...how far can he make a shot?? I've seen him make a shot so far that he thought he'd missed the animal, while I knew he'd hit it..sure enough, the deer was dead where it was standing, but he had no ideal where it was standing due to the distance the shot was made at.. While I truely understand the excitement in killing an animal at an extreme range, I can't make myself pull the trigger on a shot that is in any way questionable in my mind...I also have trouble with all these video's of these guys killing animals at 1000 yards and beyond without showing their equipment and explaining what it takes to accomplish such a shot...there are too many variables to account for when it comes to these distances(1000 yards plus)...my problem with it is the fact that they don't show the number of misses or wounded animals before they finally hit one.. I know that there are a few sportmans out there than can and do make these shots, and do it quite often....but, someone watches an experienced marksmans make these, then say, hey if he can do it, so can I...then they go out and wound a bunch of animals...Hell, I can't believe how many people I see at the line while shooting F-Class(these are experienced shooters for the most part)that don't know their come ups or wind corrections...I've passed on a world class buck at 17 steps with my bow....he was quartering TO me instead of aways from me.. I made a 479 yard shot last year on a buck that was already wound, but at the same time, I knew the rifle, the scope zero's, and there was no wind to account for. I'd verture to say that for every one animal taken at 500 yards and beyond, there are probably 5-7 wounded and never found. I know my gun, I know I can shot the center of an F-Class target at 1000 yards, but I'll never take that shot at a animal because if I miss the F-Class target, it only cost me 10 points..if I wound that trophy animal, I've cost myself, or another hunter the chance at a trophy, not to mention not providing a quick, humane death for the animals..

 

[EricStecker]

One clarification that should be made is "what is long range hunting?" Long range hunting is when the hunter is specifically prepared to take a long range shot. This means that to do it right you have to have all the things needed for such a shot. The main components are a precision hunting rifle with a scope/rifle/load combination with proven sub 1/2 MOA or better capability at long range, a top quality range finder, wind velocity reading device, shooting sticks or some other high quality rifle stabilizing platform from which to shoot and a precise trajectory calculation device/method.

When I gave the example that telling people not to shoot long range is like telling someone years ago that a motorized vehicle is not needed when you have a perfectly good horse, I was expressing that today the items listed above are readily available to anyone who is interested in doing more with their hunting experience. This was not the case until somewhat recently. Today's precision equipment (motorized vehicle) is capable of doing things which were not possible from previously available equipment (horse).

Having said that, the most important item needed for long range hunting is a hunter who takes the time on the range to confirm that they can make a long range shot each time with this gear. Those who practice long range shots become capable of making these shots quite easily. There is no way to know for certain how many animals are wounded by long range hunting as compared to short range hunting but I believe that the difference is much smaller than those who oppose this activity will suggest.

How many animals are wounded at short range by deep penetrating, high weight retention bullets that don't put the animal down quickly but instead allow them to run off and die slowly? This practice is encouraged typically by the same folks who discourage long range hunting. Let's add this to the equation and start the debate about lost/wounded animals shot at close range.

Those who oppose long range hunting spend too much time focusing on 1,000 yard shots. "Long Range" is a range that is beyond what a given hunter felt comfortable at shooting when they started. If you grew up taking shots at no more than 150 yards at Texas deer then as you get more experieneced and upgrade your equipment you can start taking shots up to 300 yards. This too is long range hunting. Very few hunters have the opportunity to take shots at 1,000 yards. Is it reasonable to believe that if a hunter sees a nice animal come out of the trees at 500 yards he is going to pick up his gear and walk 500 yards further away just so he can take a 1,000 yard shot. Of course not.

I find it amusing that those who oppose long range hunting are so easily prone to exaggeration since the argument against ethical and reasonable long range hunting is not strong enough to stand on its own. For them to win the debate, long range hunters must be painted as irresponsible and reckless with a desire only to brag about distance. Long range hunters are put in a class outside of true sportsman who don't seem to care about the very same things that those who oppose them care about which is ridiculous.

If you don't want to hunt at extended range because you doubt your equipment and/or ability then you are making the right decision not to do so. Don't try to make those who do it seem like animal haters or a stain on the reputation of sportsman because it just isn't true. Sure there are irresponsible a**holes in all aspects of firearms but to suggest that any one of these groups is filled with nothing but irresponsible a**holes and therefore should not be allowed smells a lot like what these anti-gun folks are trying to do to the whole of the shooting sports. Don't help the true enemy of the shooting sports with this rhetoric but instead stand with your fellow sportsman in an effort to educate and reduce inappropriate use of firearms.

I did not intend to start a debate on this subject but I regard most of those who oppose long range hunting as spreaders of misinformation which I strongly oppose so I'm ready to get into this if you are.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Kenny474]

Eric, I couldn't agree with you more. I would bet there is a larger percentage of long range hunters that are very careful in taking only good clean shots than there are short range hunters that do the same.
The hunter taking long shots must also be prepared to watch an animal walk away if the conditions are not perfect, where as many short range hunters will take a questionable shot, or use a questionable round or bullet, because they feel they are close enough to either track the animal or simply because they don't take enough time to consider all the variables and just throw up the gun and fire.
I have seen many hunters following blood trails through the woods, and when I ask what happened they tell me something like "he was so close I figured he had to go down" or "He snuck up on me so I just threw up and took the shot but he kept going. I found a bunch of hair and blood, so I know I hit him good".

When you are looking at an animal that is a long distance from you, you need to take the time to make sure you set the shot up correctly, and often I would think you would have an advantage in time available as the animal is so far away he probably doesn't even know your there. (I am not a long range hunter so I can't say for sure) Where as an animal a short distance away will often figure out your there in a short period of time, especially if you need to move around to get in position. So you must make very quick decisions, and also be confident in them.
I watched the biggest buck I have ever seen walk away because I couldn't get a good clean shot on him, as by the time I could get my rifle up he turned and was just showing me his big behind. It was devastating to watch him, but I only had a butt shot and I wasn't going to even try it, even though I had a 30-06 and he was maybe 70 yards away. I had several others that I bumped into on my way out of the woods (nobody I hunt with) tell me I was crazy and they would have shot him regardless. That's not responsible in my book.

I am not saying all short range hunters have bad ethics, just that when that big buck steps out buck fever can set in and questionable shot are taken. The same can happen at long range as well, but I think most that hunt long range are of the mindset that most times you will end up watching the deer walk away unless the stars align and you are presented with a perfect shot.

Kenny

 

[falconpilot]

Eric,

I grew up here in the south hunting on "powerlines" or pipelines where a person can shoot as far as they see. All my life, I've watched people shoot at game as far as they could see them..if they didn't fall, well, hell, I just missed, don't need to go look! I was taught differently though , was taught to only take a shot that I was sure about. It was only when I got into the sport on long range target shooting that I came to truely understand everything involved in hitting a target, at great distances. So, in your defense, my previous post may have been a little hard sounding, but I've never seen anyone in one of those video's using a wind meter, or taking the time after the shot to explain how they did it..

I would define "long range hunting" as the distance in which one doesn't feel 100% confinent in making a clean, killing shot...whether it be for the hunter from Colorado that is use to shooting 500 plus yards, or to the brush country hunter who rarer shots beyond 100 yards. As my post states, it's about taking a shot that you are confident in making, one that allows a clean kill, and having the sence to pass a shot when it's not a good one, whether it be 10 yards, or 1500 yards..

I had not read your post, nor was I referring to your example. As I stated, there are some marksman that are truely prepared to make these shots, but as a general rule, I think I can say that most hunters don't carry the gear with them into the field that they need to make these shots, such as wind reading devices....

I don't oppose hunting of ANY kind..long, short or in between...I oppose unethical actions in the fields....This means the bozo shooting at a deer at 500 yards with their 30/30, or the one taking the shot a deer walking straight away at 50 yards without the right equipment and bullets...

I'm not down on those true sportsman who take the time to learn their guns, carry the right equipment into the field, those that know how much energy their bullets deliver at long range..I don't agree with those that go out half ass and take pot shots at long distances or any distances for that matter.

I don't " exaggerate" the numbers..I clearly stated that "I'd Veture to guess" about the numbers, and I'd still guess that I'm not far off...You are right about the argument with the number of aminals wounded at short range verse long range..There are probably alot more wound at short range than long, but the number of shots made at shorter ranges at going to be alot higher...

I guess my post should have read, "I'm against idots shooting beyond their abilites and their equipment".....For those prepared, making that long shot is an accomplishment..for those not prepared, it's irresponible...

BTW, Berger bullets are all that I shot ;D

Jim

 

[TheSnake]

Great post Eric, nicely put and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

All,
I was hoping with my earlier post when I stated "in the hands of a skilled shooter" and "No I don't think these long ranges are for everybody so I am not looking for a fight with this post" that this debate would not start.

In the original question of this post, 903sc asked, will the Berger VLD bullet perform as well at slower speeds (slower .308 compared to other .30 Cals)? It has been proven that Berger VLD hunting bullets perform well at extreme ranges. At these extreme ranges the bullet is travelling much slower and yet they still perform properly at the longer range.

Using standard approximate velocities:
Many of the long range hunters shoot a 7MM Mag or 7MM STW with a Berger 168gr VLD hunting bullets. Let’s say the 7MM STW is going 3100fps at the muzzle. At 800 yards it is traveling 1977fps and has 1458ft-lb of energy.

With your .308 shooting a 168gr Berger VLD hunting bullet, let’s say it starts out at 2700fps. At 400 yards it is traveling 1994fps with 1484ft-lb of energy. That is little faster and with more energy than the 7MM STW at 800 yards.

Using these comparisons, I would say your .308 using a Berger 168gr hunting bullet should be able to take the same game out to 400 yards if the bullet is placed properly.

Many will say a bullet needs to be traveling so fast or needs to have so much energy to take game. Yes I agree, but just how fast or how much energy depends on the construction of the bullet and how it transfers its energy after impact.

 

[M700]

Interesting. I don't see a debate about LR hunting going on here. What I read are posts from a bunch of accuracy minded, ethical hunters intent on doing a good job afield.

Nice for a change. I've seen some nasty exchanges elsewhere.

Eric - darned good post. Thank you all for the civil discussion of both the bullets, and the long-range shots they're capable of.

Regards, Guy

 

[EricStecker]

I agree with Guy. The fact that each is able to make such good points tells me that more people are learning the true realities involved in hunting both long range and short range. To me this is the most important goal. When all the facts are known and understood then good decisions can be made by responsible people. This "debate" would likely have started much differently as recently as a year ago.

It is these responsible people that are needed to educate those who act irresponsibly. One question I'll ask of those who have witnessed irresponsible hunting is did you say anything to the offender. In most cases the offender likely is unaware of how their actions are irresponsible. Most people don't want to be an a**hole. In these cases their actions are out of ignorance or condoned by those they learned from or from more experienced hunters that they have gone out with.

Of course there will be some who just don't care but their numbers are small and unfortunately these people exist in every walk of life. We shouldn't use their behavior as an example when describing how hunters in general behave. These irresponsible people are clearly an exception and the vast majority of hunters will agree that what they are doing is wrong.

Not much to debate here since we are all in versions of agreement. I regard this as a sign that we all are learning more about the shooting sports which is a great thing for everyone involved.

Regards,
Eric

 

[falconpilot]

Eric,

Yes...I tried talking with these people over the years, but sometimes we have to remember the mentality of some of these people...i don't know about where you are from, but I kid you not...some of these people quite their jobs every fall if they can't get off to go to deer camp!!

While the Outdoor channel and Verse channel have exposed millions of people to the traditions of hunting and shooting, and this is a great thing but not without unintended consquences sometimes... Just like fishing shows....you watch Bill Dance for the first time Saturday morning, go buy a boat on Monday, and turn Pro the following weekend!! ;D Thus, your dead right, it's up to us to led by example..

As I get older, I carry alot less about killing, and more about hunting, and sharing it with my daughters, my family, and my friends. The biggest kick I've had in years was two season's ago while on the way home back from a shoot out of state, my 14 year old daughter called me wanting to know if it was OK for her to go get on a stand. Being I'd taught her safety ,and about be outdoors/sportsmanship, I told her to go ahead. Less than two hours later, I got a call from a very excited young women telling me she'd taken a very nice buck, one shot, 299 laser ranged yards. It's up to us to teach those that don't know ,and led by example....

Thanks for your thoughts and ideals..I'll let you know how the 180 hybrids do this fall..

Jim

 

[EricStecker]

Jim,

To be clear my comments are not directed at you specifically but are general comments on this subject. I am suggesting that as sportsmen we should consider how we have handled those who we have witnessed acting irresponsibly. This will make a difference.

I have not experienced the types of hard core hunters you are talking about first hand but am aware of how some towns can literally shut down on opening day.

Nothing is perfect. Even medicines that have saved millions from suffering are also known to have killed people. Unintended consequences are all around us. I believe the shooting sports as a whole is better off with the exposure these shows provide. They have the very difficult job of communicating their message to people with wide ranging knowledge about shooting and hunting. I imagine it is difficult to decide how much detail they can provide without becoming too boring to the more knowledgeable viewer. This is quite a balancing act and I believe they are doing much more good than harm.

You are to be commended for sharing the shooting sports with your family and friends. If all sportsmen do what you have done with your daughter we would hear very little about those who give hunting and hunters a bad name. Great story.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Kenny474]

I come from a reasonably small town, and as Jim stated already, many of the locals will take several weeks off during hunting season to spend in the woods, as I believe many others in the surrounding area do as well.
You can drive by wooded areas where deer are know to roam, and there will be pick-ups and cars lining the sides of the road everywhere. Sometimes you know the hunters out number the deer in certain areas by a good margin. Many of these guys hunt in large gangs with radios, doing deer drives like an angry mob running someone out of town. I have seen on more than one occasion groups of 10 to 15 guys on the side of the road getting ready to assemble into the woods, often with guys lined up on the back side of the woods waiting for the others to come through. The deer just don't stand a chance. You can try and talk to them about what their doing, but they see nothing wrong with it. And they have the police and game warden channels on their radios so they know when their coming. I know as I have heard it when I stopped to talk to them. I have reported them more times than I can count, but it still happens.

These guys don't understand that they are hurting the sport more than anything. Often times once they have descended upon somewhere and upset the locals, the woods will be posted the next year.

It has been harder and harder the past few years to find an area that isn't being hunted by 10 guys, and how are you supposed to have any hope of seeing deer with 10 guys tromping through the woods pushing the deer away? I used to drive 20 minutes to good hunting areas. Now I drive well over an hour just to find woods that aren't infested by a dozen hunters. It's just sad. Between developers removing acres of woods, and these guys hunting everything to death, the deer have nowhere left to hide and grow into trophies anymore. They are still there, but it's often in the posted area that the gangs have ruined for everyone. There used to be some smaller areas these guys didn't bother with that had a good deer population, but after they started running out of room left to hunt, they cleaned that out too.

It's just sad to see these guys so desperate to kill deer that they will go to any length to do it. No sportsmanship left. Just barbaric practices with zero skills needed that leave the deer no where to hide. What happened to going to a stand and calling or rattling? Or even just finding a good run and waiting with a buddy to see if the deer come by?

If these guys keep going the way they are, there will either be no deer left, or nowhere left that's not posted. You can report them all you want, they will just leave before anyone shows up.

 

[TheSnake]

Great story and picture Jim!

I love to see women young or older (I didn't say old) get into hunting and shooting. My wife was one of 5 siblings with only one brother and she is the oldest. Her father and brother went shooting and hunting all while she was growing up but the girls didn't get to go. When she and I got married 7 years ago, she started shooting with me and she absolutely loves it. She now has several pistols and a rifle of her own (.257 Wby Mag) along with everything of mine she can get her hands on. She took a buck on the ranch each of the last two years and loves dove hunting too. I enjoyed her taking her two deer much more than I enjoy taking deer myself.

I load her rounds down several hundred fps slower than capable and use the 115gr VLD hunting bullets. The 250 yard shot she took was just as effective as the 80 yard shot. This is plenty for deer, coyote and a pig or two, and if needed, can be loaded full velocity to go after something a little larger (but not quite as large as Roy did).

 

[Vinootz]

First of all, Hello! I am new to this forum. I have a once in a lifetime opportunity to hunt elk in Colorado this fall. After researching several bullets, I decided to use the Berger VLD for my .308Win. I ordered a box of these bullets so I can begin working up an accurate load and they arrived today. However, it says on the top "Not Suitable for Hunting". I then realized that I ordered the "Target VLD" instead of the "Hunting VLD".

I contacted the supplier that I purchased the bullets from and he said the only difference is the jacket thickness and that the Target bullet will work fine for elk but will penetrate deeper before fragmenting. My concern, though, is that the .308 is a slower velocity to begin with (compared to other .30 caliber rifles) and I don't know that this bullet will expand/fragment as needed at a longer range or slower velocity shot. What are your experiences or suggestions for this?

(Also, if these won't work properly for this application, I have an unopened box of .30cal 168grn Berger Target VLD bullets if anyone would like to trade for a box of Hunting VLD
Good luck. Know the terminal performance of your projectile at various ranges and understand OGE(optimum game weight). I don’t think that bullet would do well at close range and smashing through bone on an elk. Stay safe.

 

[Vinootz]

I come from a reasonably small town, and as Jim stated already, many of the locals will take several weeks off during hunting season to spend in the woods, as I believe many others in the surrounding area do as well.
You can drive by wooded areas where deer are know to roam, and there will be pick-ups and cars lining the sides of the road everywhere. Sometimes you know the hunters out number the deer in certain areas by a good margin. Many of these guys hunt in large gangs with radios, doing deer drives like an angry mob running someone out of town. I have seen on more than one occasion groups of 10 to 15 guys on the side of the road getting ready to assemble into the woods, often with guys lined up on the back side of the woods waiting for the others to come through. The deer just don't stand a chance. You can try and talk to them about what their doing, but they see nothing wrong with it. And they have the police and game warden channels on their radios so they know when their coming. I know as I have heard it when I stopped to talk to them. I have reported them more times than I can count, but it still happens.

These guys don't understand that they are hurting the sport more than anything. Often times once they have descended upon somewhere and upset the locals, the woods will be posted the next year.

It has been harder and harder the past few years to find an area that isn't being hunted by 10 guys, and how are you supposed to have any hope of seeing deer with 10 guys tromping through the woods pushing the deer away? I used to drive 20 minutes to good hunting areas. Now I drive well over an hour just to find woods that aren't infested by a dozen hunters. It's just sad. Between developers removing acres of woods, and these guys hunting everything to death, the deer have nowhere left to hide and grow into trophies anymore. They are still there, but it's often in the posted area that the gangs have ruined for everyone. There used to be some smaller areas these guys didn't bother with that had a good deer population, but after they started running out of room left to hunt, they cleaned that out too.

It's just sad to see these guys so desperate to kill deer that they will go to any length to do it. No sportsmanship left. Just barbaric practices with zero skills needed that leave the deer no where to hide. What happened to going to a stand and calling or rattling? Or even just finding a good run and waiting with a buddy to see if the deer come by?

If these guys keep going the way they are, there will either be no deer left, or nowhere left that's not posted. You can report them all you want, they will just leave before anyone shows up.

They just gotz to git in their last licks before allz them thar deer is gonn- lol.
Buckaroo wannabes are all about these days. With their beards, wench, hitch and plow on their pickups- LMAO. Funny, when I was a kid in the 60s all the guys-even rural America- wanted hot rod cars. I don’t know how this wannabe red neck schtick has transpired these days. Lol

 

[JFrank]

8/2/2010