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Berger retires 6.5mm VLD ogive die

Frans & Jannie,

There is no need for an apology; I took no offence at what you wrote. I just wish we knew what causes some to lose bullets and others to enjoy the good life. I hope to see you all next year and Lodi; I guarantee is completely different country from Raton. I have a deal for you…when next you come to the USA, I’ll give you two bullets for everyone that doesn’t make it to a target.;)

Larry
 
To All,

Situations have kept me away. Apologies for not responding sooner. Thank you for your kind words. I know how difficult shooting can be when things are not going well. I say this a lot and will say it again, I am committed to doing whatever I can to strengthen the shooting sports.

I believe that when a shooter is having trouble they need help from someone or they just might put that rifle in the closet forever and take up golf. I just happen to be a bullet maker so bullets is the area in which I am familiar and can provide the most assistance.

I take this same approach with Berger. I focus,maybe too much) on how we can make things better for the shooter. I am listening careful to the feedback and I am hearing shooters say "stop bullet failures, end poor availability, provide different bullet sizes for my use, lower prices, provide loading data and rapid tech support." All of these are the same things that I would want as a shooter. I can assure you that we are working on all of them. We will make great improvement is most areas and as much improvement as possible in all areas.

Having said all of that, the root cause of the bullet failure situation has been identified,there are several). Our focus now is on finding the solutions. There are two paths and we are walking them both. The first is education. There are several things that shooters can do to eliminate or significantly reduce bullet failures. Most of these are related to reducing friction,and there are several ways to do that).

Let me be clear that with all of the violent things that happen to a bullet while being forced through a barrel it is unfair to say that the results of failure is the fault of the shooter. A shooter has little control over the situation once the primer ignites. The point of eductation is to help the shooters prepare a combination that can be very successful while at the same time preventing failure before the primer ignites. For those of you that have not seen my report on this subject please email a request for a copy to eric.stecker@bergerbullets.com.

The second path is for us to work on the bullet. We need to truly understand what is going on so that we can make changes that most importantly do not reduce the precision potential of the bullet. The secondary goal is that it actually has to solve the problem. I could make a whole bunch of bullets that have thicker jackets, say that the problem is solved and find out after we have shipped them all over the world that it has not been solved. The changes need to be confirmed. With the infrequency of this result and the difficulties in "making" it happen it has proven to be challenging. The thicker jacket is the next test. We have tried other changes that so far have not solved the situation completely.

Jannie,

I've got your email and I will be in touch directly. We will be shipping you boxes of both standard bullets and thicker jacket bullets. My hope is that you can duplicate the failure results and then shoot the thicker jackets right away to see if you can make them fail. Keep in mind that you should not do anything unsafe to you or your equipment for the sake of creating failures. We will not stop until it is solved so you should not risk needlessly. If you are not able to make the standard bullets fail we will at least learn that much.

Peter,

There is no question that if the thicker jacket does significantly reduce or eliminate failures we will be making them in all calibers. We are already preparing the tooling to make thicker 6mm so that we can verify what we learn from the 6.5mm test. The problem we are facing now is that we are finding so few shooters that recently have experienced failures in spite of all the "reports". We will keep working on this.

Making thicker jackets in every caliber will be a massive project as we will keep the standard jacket thickness available since the VLDs are working so well for the big game hunters. I do not know what will happen to the terminal performance of our VLD if the jacket is thicker and I am not going to fix something that is not broken. No hunter has reported bullet failure to reach the target so this is not a problem for them.

Scott,

It has been consistent that the vast majority of bullet failures have been with non coated bullets. There have been a few reports of moly coated bullets failing however the causes were known per the shooter,self inflicted).

Moly is such a hot button for so many shooters that we do not push it as a solution,we suggest moly or any friction reducing lubricant applied to the bullet or the barrel). The fact is those who shoot moly do not experience failures,that we know of) unless other factors overwhelm the benefits of moly. Remember that it is a combination of factors that create the failure result. Moly is not the cure ignoring all other factors but it does help.

However, it is true that recently a very well known shooter using a different brand had some 117 gr tipped bullets fail that were boron coated. I know nothing about boron but folks relay that it is pretty slippery stuff. If the boron worked properly and the cause was not friction related then what could the cause be? Tough question.

Long, heavy bullets are the most likely to suffer from heat related failures but in this case it might have been something else. This is a great example of why finding a solution is so challenging because when we learn something we think we can hold on to we learn something else that seems to contradict it on the surface.

I hope you are well. Please excuse my lack of communication with you as I am a bit overwhelmed lately. I'd like to say things are getting better however it seems that the more we do the more we get to do. I am not complaining but it keeps me away from the phones.

Larry,

Always a pleasure and tell Bev I said hello.

Regards,
Eric
 
Hi Eric,

Thank you for your response. I have sent you a PM regarding my own bullet failures. Our UK League sees a considerable number of 7mm 180g Bergers shot and failures do sporadically occur. Some have them in practise where they are firing faster than the two to three to a firing point in competition. So heat and fouling probably play a part. Mine went in competition on the second day after firing about 30 rounds in each case so again heat and fouling.

I think therefore a thicker jacket will prove to be the answer.

If you could do a thicker jacket batch to test against the current ones I can easily arrange this to be done at one of our club competitions, as opposed to a League shoot where I think some may feel it a bit risky ). We could use quite a large batch of shooters as 7mm is very dominant. Team shoots could also be organised to see if string firing brought about any increase.

Regards

Peter.
 
I might have missed, but can't see where anybody has answered Eric's request for info about bullets...produced after lot #764... from the new 6.5 dies.

I'll begin by saying that I wished I'd bought a truck load of lot #763 130's last year before Berger retired the dies. For me they shot like lasers through my 6.5 x 47, winning 2 Registered 1000y F-class meets at AEDC,Tullahoma).

The first 2 lots of 130's I have from the new die, lot #994 and #1232 have been a disaster...for me. Base to ogive they measure .056" longer than lot #763. The difference is very noticeble. With .120 freebore, now eroded about .015 after 2200 rounds, I cannot compact my powder charge enough when loading to achieve a reasonable seating depth with this longer bullet. Closing the bolt is difficult as it tries to push the bullet deeper into the case and engage the rifling an obscene amount. Reducing powder charge is not an option.

Results after very extensive,3 boxes) testing suck....6" groups at 600y where I used to get 1-1/2" and barely hold the 8 ring at 1000y.

Expensive solution: Last week I pulled barrel. Sent action and new Krieger to Greg Tannel. He is going to extend freebore in new chamber...a lot!... to give me the same base of bullet to top of powder charge as I got with lot #763.

ES of bullet weights on lot #994 is over .3 grain, lightest to heaviest. Not as good as previous lots.

As for bullets going "poof"! I have opened and inspected, etc, 5 boxes of lot #994. On average I have found one very defective bullet in each box, to wit: what appears to be one petal of the meplat smashed down on its neighbor such that it makes a slightly curved groove you can catch with your nail. I suspect firing one of these would result in "poof"!

Except for the "poof" observation, I advised Eric of my findings 2 weeks ago. If he tells us when he is "going" to retire the current die, I'll put the old Krieger back on and finish wearing it out with the last lot produced.

Frank
 
I've been reading this tread from tne begining and I have a question. Is a "blow up" a miss?. I'm shoot in USPSA, is this the same as someone saying in my disapline,that they shot a double. which is a lame way of trying to not be scored a miss. I know its two different worlds, 1000 yards vs up close and personal distances. I've heard grand masters try to convince the RO's that they shoot a double on a drop turning target. They usually get scored a miss.
Up until the price of reloading supplies increased, i would shoot about 40000-50000 round a years, and I learned to tell when I pulled a shot off target.
Eric on 4/12/08 I had aquired a savage f-class and to date I have 255 rounds tru it, and every single time I pulled the trigger I've seen steel hit, or dirt fly. All thou I was shooting at our 500 yard metal rams that have trees behind them instead of a berm, so I may have had a blow up. All with 140gr VLD and 50.4grs of 4381sc, and I have 3 boxes of lot#998. Typically I shoot no more than 50 rnds, and I'm going to stick some temp tape in 4 places on the barrel and go and shoot at our 1000 meter targets, and run 45 rounds tru it to see how it heats up.
 
JohnRodriguez said:
I've been reading this tread from tne begining and I have a question. Is a "blow up" a miss?.

No... it's when the bullet literally flies apart from the high rotational forces do to the faster spin needed for the very long bullets.
 
Eric
Have a new 6.5 x 284 and have been testing various bullets at 800, 900, and 1,000. Just finished a box of 140gr 6.5mm lot #998 and they out shot both the SMK 142 and Lapua 139 in my rifle.
My quetion is why Berger does not package their bullets in 500 count boxes?
I have to take my chances when I order 500 or more bullets that I wont get a shipment of mixed lot #s plus they should be cheaper in boxes of 500.
Thanks
Dave
 
Dirtball, good question about the 500rd boxes but what I do is tell the retailer on the phone that they must be of the same lot and if they are not willing to do that spend your money elsewhere
 

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