Berger retires 6.5mm VLD ogive die

[EricStecker]

Over the years Berger has retired many dies. When this happens the new die is produced so that it is as close to the same shape as possible however there are usually slight differences. In the past, we did not notify the shooters when this change occurred. This was not meant to hide the change but rather because we felt the differences was too small to matter.

Recently we have received feedback that you would like to know when a die has been changed so that you can verify that your COAL still touches the rifling the same amount as the previous die. We are committed to enhancing the shooting experience and we recognize that this information is especially important to those shooting the VLDs due to its potential to be sensitive to seating depth changes.

For these reasons Berger is announcing that the current 6.5mm VLD ogive die used to make the 130 gr VLD and 140 gr VLD is being retired. The new VLD ogive die will start production with lot number 826. All lot numbers higher than 826 will be made with this new die.

For those of you who do not know our lot numbering system it is very simple. Our lot numbers come from the order in which we produce each lot. Our lot number will be listed on the same side as the description,on bullets made in the last year) and will look like this: Lot# 0000826. You can ignore the zeros, which makes this lot 826. The previous lot of 6.5mm 140 gr VLD,last to be made on the retiring die) is lot 764,or Lot# 0000764 as it appears on the boxes). All lot numbers smaller than 764 were made on the retiring die.

We do not have the equipment that enables us to seat these bullets to measure the difference,if there is any). I expect it to be small and ask that someone share the difference with everyone once it is known. It is very important that everyone understand that we use only one die to make all of our bullets,within a given size) so the lots that will follow lot 826 will be made with this same die. We can make several million bullets on one die so you will not have to adjust your seating depth from lot to lot once you establish how the difference affects your COAL,until we retire this new die or to make adjustments due to throat erosion).

I will share that this new die is making bullets that have extremely good alignment between the nose and the body,which is very important to precision). From everything I can check it looks like we will have many more millions of good shooting 6.5mm VLDs in the future.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Bosveldklong]

Hi Eric,
Don't know if this is the place to ask this but here goes.
Will the change to a new die in any way mean less blow-ups on the bullets?
We were in Raton this year and witnessed at least 14 blow-ups of Berger 140gr bullets. Two of them cost us dearly in the team shoots. All our bullets were from what we learned from Larry the improved batch. Yet they still blow up.
Please advise on what we can expect from Berger to deal with this.
Regards
Frans.

 

[EricStecker]

Frans,

Can you give me names and contact info for the shooters who had experienced the blow ups with the 6.5mm 140 gr VLD? You can send them directly to eric.stecker@bergerbullets.com. We have been working to track these folks down but have been unsuccessful. We have made a batch of 140 gr VLD on the retired die using thicker jackets. I would very much appreciate it if the shooters who had blow ups would connect with us so we could have them test these thicker jacket bullets using the combination that caused failures.

To address your question, the reason for retiring the die is because it is making bullets with an OD on the large side of our tolerance,.2647 at the pressure ring). The new die is producing bullets on the small side of the tolerance,.2641 at the pressure ring). This result is normal in the life of a die.

I have been saying for a while now that I believe a large portion of bullets fail due to friction which melts the core. Since the smaller diameter pressure ring made by the new die will generate less friction as the bullet travels through the barrel it is true that a smaller bullet can help reduce failures.

Here's the rub. Friction is caused by many factors. The 6.5X284 can be described as overbore,I do not know which case was used in your examples of failures but the 6.5X284 is very popular especially among 140 gr VLD shooters). This large capacity case generates high pressure and velocity both of which generates high friction. The 6.5X284 is also very hard on barrels.

I am told that many top shooters who use this case will not put more than 1,000 rounds through a barrel as they have found the erosion at this number of shot start to affect precision. That is not a lot of rounds and the question needs to be asked "well then how bad is the bore at 400 rounds or 600 rounds? or how much does the friction increase as the round count increases?"

Further, many 6.5X284 shooters use 30" and longer barrels which have 9" or 8" twist to shoot the heavy 6.5mm bullets. The long barrel and fast twist results in the bullet engaging the rifling longer,in linear inches) again increasing friction. The bullet is hottest at the muzzle and every inch makes this situation worse.

Each one of these factors contributes to bullet failure. Will our smaller OD bullet made by this new die by itself overcome these other factors? It is impossible to say but it is a step in the right direction.

It is very important that those who experience failure using the 6.5mm 140 gr VLD contact me so that we can test what might be a true cure to bullet failure,thicker jacket). This has not been proven but we are willing to pursue any path to make our bullets tougher so that they can withstand all the punishment the above circumstances create.

It could be that the shooters who experienced failure had simply pushed too many rounds through their barrels and hoped that it would not cook a bullet at the match. If this is the case then it was a risky gamble but this is good for our test since they have conditions in which the thicker jacket can be truly put to the test.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Ogre6br]

can your dies be re-built??

when working at a bolt making works a few years back and the carbide dies became O/S the carbide insert was pushed out of the die body and a new insert was installed.

Is that what happens with your dies or are they a one piece construction??

Can your dies be opened up to a new size if the are coated steel??

thanks
later
p

 

[Bosveldklong]

Hi Eric,
Our team member that had difficulties was Jannie Els. I have directed him to this posting. He will contact you straight away with details and the lot# that he used.
Larry Bartholome also have all the details of blow-ups during the match.
Hope to work with you through this.
Regards
Frans.

 

[mikecr]

Eric, your theories seem weak.
The 6.5-284 has been a very successful. Do you think all barrel burning cartridges CAUSE your bullets to blow up?

I'm pretty sure it's hopeless marketing to suggest that one of the most common LR BR cartridges, isn't compatible with Bergers..
I've already mentioned to you in the past that blaming customers, and their equipment, could be a bad start in solving problems. But time will tell.
Especially when all anyone has to do to fix this issue is switch bullet brands..

But then, I don't make em, I don't sell em, and lately I use other brands.

 

[olympian]

I have been wondering for a while now about jacket thickness in general when it comes to match bullets. Considering these are not varmint bullets designed to destroy targets while meeting accuracy standards, it would seem to me a thicker jacket, within reason, would provide some benefits, e.g. no 'blow-ups'. These VLD-type bullets are going to be pushed to higher pressures, especially in calibers like 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, and .308, so why not use slightly thicker jackets and remove these problems from the equation.

Silhouette shooters I talked to swear there are differences in bullets of the same class in taking rams. They seem to think it is jacket thickness, but I doubt there are any solid data supporting this theory. I do hate those sticky rams and would love to have a few thousand of the old Sierra 6.5mm 155grs. Jacketed 'blow-ups' in non-varmint bullets sounds pretty dubious.

My 2/100ths of a dollar

 

[JannieSA]

Hi Eric & Frans

I got myself signed-up for this reply. I am not the one always complaining & therefor do a "read only" on-line but never participate in forums. Well, I can only tell you a story that will make anyone cry. The US Nationals in Raton were the place. I use a 6,5 284 and never had problems in my own country. Maybe I should say never used Bergers with my 6,5. Sierra were my brand back home for 6,5. I use Bergers with my 6mm & 7mm. Well, if you spent USD 10,000 flying halfway around the world to compete then you sometimes try to treat yourself too. Well, as you know by now my treat changed face and end-up in a disaster.
I did 492 shots. Nationals & SOA.
48gr powder,4831)
4x blow-ups.,2 in team shoots & 2 in individual)
1:9 twist Broughton barrel.
lot # 0000637 orange box - maybe this was for hunting only.
I have bought 500 brand new Lapua cases for this shoot.
As far as my knowledge go = 13 blow-up Bergers,maybe more)

Enough said.
I hope you can rectify, whatever the problem. Call me if you wish.

Regards
Jannie Els,South Africa)
Cell +27828703033

 

[EricStecker]

Ogre6br,

We have never considered reburning our retired dies so I do not know if this would work properly for bullet making. I will admit that knowing what I do about the die making process I am a bit uncomfortable with the idea of a reburned die. This could be a mental thing only as I do not have any data or experience to support this opinion.

Frans,

If he is agreeable, we will be sending some of the 6.5mm 140 gr VLD made on the thicker jackets down to South Africa to be tested in Jannie's rifle. I am very hopeful to learn something.

Mike,

Believe it or not my posts are not about marketing and my theories on this matter are backed up by years of hard work by many folks on this subject. I know that some will avoid failures in certain situations by switching to Sierra however it is also true that Sierras along with every other brand fail as well.

I am not blaming the shooter but rather trying to find the true root cause. I am certain that I am the only bullet maker working publicly with the shooters while pursuing this effort even though every bullet maker has reports of failures.

What data do you have to support the theory that it is entirely the fault of the Berger bullet? You can't say that it is because you can switch to Sierra to avoid failures because this only works in specific situations. Many shooters have experienced failures from other bullets makers including Sierra while Berger bullets of similar size and weight do not fail,example: 22 cal 90 gr and the 6mm 115 gr to name a few) My attention to this situation is not focus on one caliber or cartridge which makes the situation that much more difficult to solve.

You have no idea of the massive amount of time, money and effort we have put into this situation. You speak as if I am deflecting the issue when Berger is the only one I am aware of actively pursuing a solution even though all experience failure. It is a fact that this is not a black and white issue and even after all our work we have not come to a firm solution. I believe we have some sound possible solutions but our bullets are too successful,across the board) to simply change things without knowing for sure that it will be an improvement.

Thicker jackets are a leading possible solution since they put the core further away from the source of heat,the rifling). Our delay to produce thicker jackets was based on the substansial cost of tooling and the fact that even thicker jacket bullets,like Sierras) fail as well. Their jacket are thicker yet they fail too. Why? Frankly, we don't know. This is a very difficult situation to sort out.

We have incurred the expense of making a thicker jacket for the 6.5mm even though we have no evidence that it will work other than our theories,and we won't know without trying). We are in the process of doing this for the 6mm also so that we can make comparisons. We are a small operation trying our best to solve this "bullet maker wide" problem. Our resources are a fraction of the larger companies yet we still pursue this agressively. Please do not consider that this is not of the utmost importance to us and that we would deflect our obligation to make a product that can with stand any abuses.

The 6.5X284 is overbore. This does not make it a "bad" cartridge but we do get more reports of failures from 6.5X284 shooters than any others,even with that fact we still get very few reports in comparison to the massive amount of Berger 6.5mm bullets that are shot by this cartridge). Could the fact that we hear more about 6.5mm failures be because the 6.5X284 is so popular? Is it bad marketing that I am so committed to helping shooters that I am willing to say this publicly? Maybe, but I won't handle it any other way because it is the truth.

I have said it many times that I want the shooter to have the best experience they can as I feel this is one of the keys to strengthening the shooting sports. We make a great shooting 6.5mm bullet that I know is capable of failure in high friction situations. By letting shooters know this along with what they can do to reduce friction we give them the chance to either avoid failures with our bullets,there are a number of ways to do this) or to switch bullets.

I cannot believe that by sharing this information I am being hurtful to anyone's shooting experience as I have a hard time believing someone would be offended by my trying to help them. We will solve this issue but until that happens I will share with shooters everything I know to help them avoid negative results. It is up to the shooter to decide what to do with this information.

Did I wrong you in some way to cause such a negative response?

Jannie,

I know that this had to be an incredibly frustrating experience for you. With your help we may be able to keep other shooters from going through the same situation.

I would appreciate it very much if you would be willing to test some 6.5mm 140 gr VLD we have made on thicker jackets. It is important that you use the combination that created the failures at the Nationals. Please send me an email directly at eric.stecker@bergerbullets.com so that we can discuss the particulars and I encourage you to share anything you wish on this forum regarding your test.

You mention "13 blow up Bergers" but relay that you had four personally. Do you know the others who had these failures using 6.5mm?

If anyone can help us track these folks down it will be appreciated as I am committed to solving this situation permanently.

Regards,
Eric

 

[rstreich]

Perception is such a funny thing. I read Eric's posts and think: "You know, I really appreciate the fact that a company is willing to stick their neck out and engage with their customers on the forums."

I've seen Eric's posts on all but one of the forums that I frequent and I've read probably every one of his posts. Not once have I ever had the impression that he was trying to blame anyone. On the contrary, I felt that he was giving a lot of valuable information to Berger customers.

Reading through those threads I find that there are a lot of people who have a different perception. I can't for the life of me understand how they came to those conclusions, but they did. I go back and reread them--still can't figure it out.

In the meantime I find that since Eric has become such a frequent poster, I buy more Berger bullets than I ever have before. I've even ordered a few reamers with freebores centered around Berger bullets. In the end, I'll shoot whatever combination of bullet/powder/primer that barrel likes, but I'll start with a Berger in many of them.

If I were to fault Eric for anything, it would be for responding to some of the critics. It only distracts from the more important parts of the thread.

robert

 

[sparker]

Eric, are most of the blowups occuring with uncoated bullets?
If so, this would seem to support the heat death theory of bullet failure. I have shot coated bullets exclusively for several years and have not lost one yet. Tubb shoots moly. I think he has probablty seen eveything that can happen with reloading. If you care to email me, we can talk about ways to possibly address the heat problem.

Scott Parker
Bakersfield CA

 

[M700]

"To address your question, the reason for retiring the die is because it is making bullets with an OD on the large side of our tolerance,.2647 at the pressure ring). The new die is producing bullets on the small side of the tolerance,.2641 at the pressure ring). This result is normal in the life of a die."

I cannot remember another bullet maker letting their customers know when they're doing something potentially big, like changing the die that makes the bullet. To do so is simply outstanding, and I think reflects highly on the integrity of both Berger Bullets and Eric.

Who else just posts to the world that they're changing something, that just might affect us shooters?

Does Hodgdon tell us when Varget gets changed? Or do we tell them that it's changed? Does any barrel maker tell us when they change reamers, or why?

Thanks Eric, I don't even shoot 6.5's, but I'm impressed with the fact that you went out of your way to advise us that there's a change coming in those bullets. I do shoot your .25's, 7mm's and .30's though... Haven't had one blow up yet, but I'll let you know. I do remember seeing Hornady A-Max bullets blowing up a few years ago at a prone match. Don't know if that was resolved or not.

Regards, Guy

 

[olympian]

I agree with M700 and rstreich when it comes to product support and willingness to communication. Keep up the good work in this regard. I have never fired a Berger VLD but I will very soon now that I see the degree of dedication to get products right for the more honorable reasons.
Thanks, Eric!

 

[Lbart]

Eric,

Since my name has been mentioned a few times in this thread, I’ll throw in my 2cents worth. While I knew the South African shooters and perhaps other had some bullets failures in Raton, I have no details on what happened. I was just too busy trying to help out during the match to pay much attention to what was happening. I never told Frans they were shooting the “improved batch”. This was probably misunderstanding due to my hearing and a language/accent problem. I did mention Eric was testing new ideas.

I also shot a 6.5x284 during the SOA and F-Class Nationals. The barrel was a Shilen 1-8”, 29” long; the load was 49.0 grains of H-4350, 140 Berger moly, lot #0000631. I finished the matches with 494 rounds thought the barrel. Velocity = 2950 fps at the start of matches. I cleaned every 75-85 shots with BoreTech Eliminator, patches and a nylon brush. Copper was still visible at the end of the barrel each time, I was too tired to clean anymore.

Prior to these matches and during all of 2006 and through July of 2007, I used 2 Broughton 1-8” barrels w/naked 140 Berger’s, lot # 0000113. Barrels were 30” long. I fired 1022 rounds through one barrel, 49.0 grains H-4350, velocity at take off was 3016 fps. The other one had 991 rounds fired through it. Velocity 3010 fps. I had one bullet go AWOL at 988 rounds in the second one, which I attribute to high round count and lack of cleaning,I hate cleaning barrels). This happened on the same day a well know shooter was losing a number of coated 117 grain bullets shooting on the point next to me.

One of the Irish shooters also shot lot 0000113 during the Raton matches with no problems in a Bartlein barrel. I will say that I think carbon fouling along with heat is the cause of many a missing/flyer bullet. Carbon can be the devil to get out of a barrel. Another factor in blowups is the rate at which many F-Class shooters fire their shots. Shooting 17- 25 shots in a few minutes causes a lot of fouling and heat buid up. Doing this without cleaning for 75-90 shots an be a killer.

I am truly sorry that Jannie and others lost bullets after traveling so far, but that just goes to prove the old adage, “don’t change anything going into a major match”. I made a change not related to my ammo or rifle before the F-Class Nationals and paid dearly for it also.

Larry Bartholome

 

[PeterPHWS]

Eric,

Can you please do a run of thicker jackets on the 7mm 180g?

Don't overlook the guys shooting this calibre

Your best results come from us!

Peter Wilson

 

[Lbart]

Peter,
"Eric,
Can you please do a run of thicker jackets on the 7mm 180g?
Don't overlook the guys shooting this calibre
Your best results come from us!
Peter Wilson"

Peter
Only where you live!
Larry

 

[PeterPHWS]

Hi Larry,

You've got me laughing ....

True enough I know 7mm's are really popular here...but Jim's doing well with his 7mm RSAUM Imp...so we are definately worth a "special thick jacket"

Remember it is illegal to discriminate! 6.5 shooters cannot have it all their own way!

Regards

Peter.

 

[Bosveldklong]

Larry,
My apologies for any misunderstanding. Didn't mean to involve you wrongly.
Regards
Frans.

 

[JannieSA]

Larry

The wise from your reply “don’t change anything going into a major match”. Not again, you have my word for it.

Thanks again for all the effort you made for us in Raton. We might see in Lodi 2008.

Best regards
Jannie

 

[Bosveldklong]

Jannie!
I like your way of thinking!!!
Frans