Berger Load Data

[mmcauliffe]

Anybody have a source for Berger load data. I can fudge, start low from any number of other manuals but it would be nice to see what is recommended from the source.

 

[mikecr]

It's more about YOUR barrel, YOUR powder, etc, than bullet brand.
Why would bullet makers provide you with load data?
Where would they get it?
Why would you expect it from them?

 

[Browningguy]

Actually just email Berger and Walt will send you all the loads they have for a specific bullet and cartridge. I asked about 95 VLD's in a .243 and they emailed me a list of about 10 loads with starting/max loads and velocities.

 

[mmcauliffe]

Hey Mike - I appreciate the input but I look at it as a starting point, that's why I would just move on and use another manual as a "suggested starting point" if there was nothing specifically out there for Berger. I'm going to do some sort of a ladder test or my version of one so it really dosen't matter. I suppose it's more of a curiosity thing...what is everybody else up to sorta thing.

Why does Speer, Sierra, Hodgdon etc, bother publishing them? There can't be that much of a profit margin in them [loading manuals], especially when once they put it in print for the general public & with this lawsuit happy society there must be some liability there that hardly makes it worth the effort.

Regards,
Mike

 

[mikecr]

Exactly.
I can understand powder companies doing it in a VERY GENERAL sense. Actually, I'd think they would establish and post standard powder parameters only with their offerings, and leave the reloading predictions to factory rifle makers.
It makes sense that Remington, or Winchestor would put out reloading manuals for THEIR cartridges.

But bullet makers?
It cannot be predicted or suggested that loads for Berger bullets would be different than another brand by weight in YOUR barrel, with YOUR chamber, and about a dozen other factors.
The only exception I could stretch to might be an 'adjustment' for Solid bullets such as Barnes.

I think these companies copy, & recopy, plagiarized data from years ago,with occasional tweaking, even mistakes, to make it all seem real), and put out the manuals for their own marketing and merchandising. Like getting a Calendar from Sierra, or a burn chart from Swift. It's just to remind us they are here, with bullets, we should try..

It doesn't really matter to me either since I've never looked in a reloading manual. This subject only caught my interest because of it's implication that there are reloaders out there who have come to rely on this source as though it's a must have.

What does make sense as an example from bullet makers, is Sierra's external ballistics manuals and software. That's their business.

 

[billmo]

OK Mike. Just a thought here. Where does the NEW reloader go just starting out to find info. The rifle manuf. are not going to help. I remember years ago when I first got started I don't know where I would have turned to get start info from if I could not have gotten a manual of some sort. I think the manual even with it's short comings does serve a practical purpose. Just my opinion and you know what they all say about that. Bill

 

[EricStecker]

MikeCR,

Your post will do far more harm than good. You talk about reloading like you are a master. Maybe you are but these forums are for everyone and are very helpful for new or novice level shooters. You should not give someone a hard time for asking a good question.

Bullet makers should provide data because of the differences between bullet weights and shapes. You should not use a 53 gr load for a 64 gr bullet for example. You comment that you have never looked in a reloading manual speaks volumes about your decision making process. You must have used some form of reference at some point as no one is born with the knowledge of which powders work and which powders will leave little shards of metal in your face. To suggest that someone not consult reference material when loading is irresponsible.

As you probably know the variations in loading manuals are due to the inconsistencies within a given type of powder from lot to lot. This does not mean that shooters can't use this data to find safe and reliable loads. A very experienced reloader may use charges that are different from published loading manuals however wise reloaders at least started with some safe reference material before "charging" forward.

Regarding using loading data as marketing, you must not be in business. Ask anyone who is how smart it is to stay silent and unseen in today's world. Loading data is useful and if it happens to have our phone number and website in the book well God Bless America that we have the freedoms that allow us to conduct business. Even your grocery store uses coupons.

Mmcauliffe,

To get loading data on Berger Bullets email your cartridge and bullets to Walt Berger at bergerltd@aol.com. He will provide you with a full spread of min. and max. loads that will give you a great place to start. He usually responds the same day.

To All,

We are nearly finished with our loading manual and will be publishing it in mid to late 2008. It will include our phone number.

Regards,
Eric

 

[billmo]

Eric, I have been reloading now for over 13 years and loaded a lot of your bullets without your manual of course, but I will be waiting with my cash in hand to buy your manual. I guess me or anybody else might be able to continue without it but it sure would seem good to ponder over literature that covers your bullets and load data for them. I read reloading manuals and learn from them. I'm not a BR shooter nor a BS shooter either but I can do pretty dog gone good at shooting because I have learned from printed material and applied what knowledge I have
because of that material. Bill

 

[mikecr]

I'm actually very conservative. My instructor in a high school reloading class,fun school) told me that I should never assume anything in the shooting industry, because no two barrels are the same.
I used word of mouth but carefully worked up.
When Quickload came out I was definitely an early adopter. I've found that it is the ONLY reliable source of load data because it can be calibrated to the specific barrel. Occasionally, I bounce new loads off those posted at Reloadersnest.com, for confirmation and work up.
I have used many bullet brands with different cartridges, and have not seen where Berger bullets or any other, at a given weight, require special loads.
For example a 140gr 26cal bullet, whether it's a Berger, Nosler, Sierra, Speer, Remington, JLK, Lapua, etc, will have the same load range to work up through. Going from this to a heavier bullet, or jamming into lands, will of course require adjustment.
If someone feels they need to see load data from a specific bullet maker to proceed with basic reloading, they are pittifuly lost,especially someone possessing Quickload).


What load data will Berger be copying for a manual?
What will Berger gain from predicting loads within such a manual,aside from liability and limelight)?

 

[billmo]

It is impossible to load a 140 gr. bullet from each of the manuf. that you mentioned and obtain the same results. It will vary and some will have higher chamber pressures than others.

Therefore, it is likely that the load for one bullet will be too much for another with the same amount of powder in the case.

Sorry, but I beg to differ whether you are utilizing Quick Load or whatever type of program. Are you "ASSUMING" Quick Load is perfect? There is that word that your Instructor warned you about. Just being objective. Bill

 

[billmo]

There is the fact. The proof of actual load testing is far superior to an educated guess by a computer program that was compiled by math formulas where any tiny item missed or mis-interpreted could and most of the time does cause numbers to vary
more than one might even imagine. You are correct Mr. Moran

Fact: Get start load data from real time testing. That is the most accurate place to start SAFELY

 

[mmcauliffe]

I want to thank the guys over at Berger for getting back with me, and so quickly, for the load data I was looking for. It was in my "inbox" when I got up this morning. In addition to the load data, they also answered some additional questions.

Thanks Eric & Walt!!

 

[mikecr]

A FACT here is that QuickLoad is the ONLY source which a good reloader can calibrate. Yes it will be off initially. Yes you will have to get confirmation and work up. Same will hold true from ANY source. THATS ANOTHER FACT..
This is because of all the variables, like that powder you just purchased.

Is this variable accounted for in load manuals?
You think Walt could guess about it's current heat potential and burn rate? If so, he must be a wizard indeed.
No, he can not.
I have powder & cartridge files for each gun.
With every new lot of powder, seating depth, primer, sizing bushing, annealing, bullet coating, or barrel change, tweaking is in order. I also keep very good logs.
And I never suggested you should run with near max loads while changing bullet brands. Anyone who would is an idiot, and I'm sure most reloaders are not idiots. Most would certainly know to back off initially with ANY change. ANY CHANGE.

I just don't see it as rocket science. Put just a little effort into it folks..Some independant thought. Reloading is very, very simple today.
Now I have nothing against Berger bullets or any reloading manual provided by them. I have absolutely no doubt about Walt Berger's knowledge base.
But I can't imagine bothering the man with stupid load questions.
And yes, there are stupid questions. Blurts. They represent zero personal effort toward resolution, from the asker.
But it's all opinion one way or another. No big deal.

 

[EricStecker]

Mike, I don't agree with many of your statements. It is my opinion that your comments are counter productive and I will generally ignore your posts. I will repond to certain aspects of your posts so that others can make decision with all the facts.

Walt is using QuickLoad to produce our loading manual. He has been using QuickLoad for many years now and has found it to be a useful tool. We purchase each updated version as they are published. Over the years we have been discussing the variations in information produced by Quickload with the programmer in Germany. We have learned many things the most important of which is the considerable difference from lot to lot within a given powder designation.

These differences can be so extensive that the powders can change places on the burn rate chart. One example of variation within a type of powder, Varget varies so much that several pressure testing houses in Europe will not provide test data for Varget any more.

The programmer has relayed that in each revision of his software he uses the data that he has available at the time. Producing this software is a great challenge considering the variations that different lots can produce. He is aware of the variations that can occur and believes it is important to provide data so that shooters have some where to start and so do we.

We do not have the resources or time to shoot every cartridge and bullet with all the various powders to produce a loading manual. Given the variations from lot to lot and the inconsistencies between all loading manuals we made the decision that QuickLoad is no less capable of providing loading data than if we were to shoot each load. We have been working on the loading manual for many years and have further factors to back this desicion which I will refrain from sharing in the interest of brievity.

For the record, every load that Walt provides to the shooters who request information has been generated by using QuickLoad. Walt states this when he send to data to the shooter. We agree that no load developing system is perfect. We strongly believe that no load developing system can overcome the variations in powder burn rates from lot to lot. By providing this reference data we are giving shooters somewhere to start. Many who have used this data agree that it has been helpful.

I agree with Bill and Donovan that differences can be found and we have found them. This is the primary reason why loading manual's data,including QuickLoad data) for the most part provide max loading data that is conservative. Many will say it is to avoid liability and they are partially correct. It is mostly not a direct avoidance of liability but rather a means of managing the wide variations in powders from lot to lot so that the data is safe for the shooters.

Those of use in the reloading industry are in a tough position. On one hand we are being asked daily for specific information. On the other hand each company has little,more like zero) influence over the other components involved. So we are faced with a dilema that we are compelled to overcome. It is my opinion that we are doing the best we can under the circumstances.

Regards,
Eric

 

[billmo]

Yes Mike, it is all about opinions from each individual. But the key factor that you don't seem to get a grip on is SAFETY.
New guys trying to get started cannot be told to ignore reloading manuals. You seem to be a smart guy. All we are saying is if for no other reason,which there are plenty) just acknowledge the simple fact that reloading manuals have their place in our game. It is a "no brainer" for sure and it is very unprofessional and without merit whatsoever to try and tell anybody for that matter that reloading manuals should not exist or should not be read. That to me is a very ignorant statement to make. Sorry, but if I can convince mmcauliffe to study and learn from the vast printed materials how to play safe then we can carry this on as long as you want to argue my friend. Bill

 

[FRMTHRFTPS]

I was searching for load data for the berger bullets as well. I have been reloading since the mid sixties and when I started and until now there is always discussion among the people I associate with regarding the reloading data and techniques different people use. I for one am always appreciative that a manufacturer of any of the components used to reload takes the time and tests their product so that new OR repeated data is available. I don't think that they are intending for the data they provide to be the only data to be used but as confirmation their product performs with that data.
For someone to be so obnoxious as this Mike character regarding the asking of a question that he was NOT obligated to answer just lets other people know that any answers he provides may or may not be intelligent, truthful and accurate responses. If he is happy in his world than he should stay there and let those who are trying to gain knowledge of this hobby be uninterrupted by his obnoxious behavior. I personally will not give him the satisfaction of a response.

 

[billmo]

THATS A GREAT DECISION MAN. ALL OF US OTHER GUYS GAVE UP TOO. SOMETIMES BLACK AND WHITE JUST AIN'T SIMPLE ENOUGH FOR SOME. BILL