Berger Column Bullets, Hoehn Tuners, Etc.

[ReedG]

Went to the range today with my supply of Berger’s “Column” bullets. I am impressed and want to start with thanks to Berger for the service they have done for precision shooters by taking the time and expense to develop this bullet.

My test today involved Vihtavuori N133 and IMR 8208XBR loads behind the 64.2-gr. Berger Column bullet. My lot of bullets actually weigh 64.3 gr. on my scale.

The rifle is a BAT SV with Krieger 1:14 barrel with 2,400+ rounds on it, in a West 2000 laminated stock and steered with a Weaver 36X scope; 100 yards with my new Graham wind flags.

The first target is four three-shot groups with N133: 28.0 gr., 28.4, 28.8 and 29.2 (bulls No. 1-4). The groups are .145”, .157”, .275”, .150” (casual measure). Plus a sighter target with N133 and the Berger WEB bullet that goes .110”.

The second target is four three-shot groups with IMR 8208XBR: 28.4-gr., 28.8, 29.2, 29.6; measuring .336”, .300”, .380”, .116”.

This post isn’t about my shooting ability, or lack thereof, or equipment but a couple of interesting observations. First, the new Berger bullets are good. The Berger Column is getting all the press, but the WEB is also a shooter.

Second, if you look at the second target with IMR 8208XBR, the first couple groups are not very good. After the second group it dawned on me that my Hoehn tuner was set at 16 for N133 with a 65-gr. bullet. The only time I tried 8208XBR with the tuner it seemed to like 18. In the third group (bull No. 3) I fired one, set the tuner to 18 and fired the two touching. Then I set the tuner at 17 and fired the group on bull No. 4.

The Hoehn (Harrell’s) tuner is designed for rimfires. It clamps onto the barrel which most don’t think is good for centerfires. But I wanted to try one and Ron reamed it out for my 6 PPC barrel. It does not move, the clamping is solid.

There are no instructions, per se, for tuners. It’s kind of trial-and-error. I am not very knowledgeable about them, but this thing is quite amazing.

The tuner is calibrated from 0 to 24 per revolution on some very fine threads. Moving the tuner from 16 to 18 is imperceptible, cannot be more than maybe .0001” of movement. That tiny bit of movement takes the groups from .300” into the .100s”. It blows my mind that this minute amount of weight movement can “tune” a barrel.

I’d be interested in the thoughts or experiences of others with tuners.

 

[timeout]

Tried some Berger Columns 64.2 gr. in my wife's 6PPC and for whatever reason, they don't shoot very well in it. I would have a few to sell you for cheap. Her rifle likes the Bart Ultras.

 

[ReedG]

I'm interested. Either PM or email me (single-shot@charter.net) ...

 

[jonbearman]

How much are the tuners going for?????

 

[queen_stick]

Thanks for the report, ReedG. Your experience with the tuner is interesting!

I find it odd that tuners seem to make significant differences for some guys, and not so much for others. There must be something else going on there. If they always worked, everyone would have one on the end their barrels.

 

[ReedG]

Jon, got mine from Ron Hoehn for $150 plus $20 to ream to size and $12 shipping.

Queen, this is my first hands-on experience with a tuner. My friend who I benchrest shoot with has them on all three of his rifles, but they are the screw-on type from his gunsmith. I've seen him use them and there is no doubt that they work and I wanted to play with one but do not want my barrel threaded.

First time at the range, with a load that was pretty good in my 6 PPC, I had no idea what to do except Ron had said to shoot a three-shot group, give it a quarter turn, shot another group, etc. I'm too cheap to waste ammo so I set the tuner at 0 and shot a two-shot group; turned it to 6, two-shot group (mind you, if the load won't put two in the same hole it surely can't put three there); turned to 12, two-shot group, etc., up to 24 which is one full revolution. This tuner will go 10 full revolutions.

My two-shot groups showed some definite variations so I took what appeared to be the best one (18) and fired a three-shot group; turned to 17, three-shot group; 16, three-shot group ... a true one-holer!!! I put up a clean paper, cleaned the barrel and, having only 11 loaded rounds left, proceeded to shoot two five-shot groups that were just fuzzy holes -- .086 and .110 just measuring "close-enough" with a caliper.

I am sold on tuners, but not certain I know enough about them to be of much value. As I said in my original post, moving this tuner from 18 to 16 is an imperceptible amount. Maybe some people are moving their tuners too far and going right past a sweet spot. I don't know and I haven't had time to do any kind of exhaustive testing. The tuner setting for 29.2 gr. of N133 is not the best for 30.2 of 8208XBR and a load of 29.0 H322 I tried was best at 17, right between the other two. It definitely makes a difference. It now behooves me to learn what that difference is and when I can use it.

Ron Hoehn told me that a tuner will only take out the "vertical" in a group, the horizontal has to be tuned out in the load. Since the "whip" of the barrel, which is what the tuner is working on, seems to always be vertical, I believe he is right.

My concept of the value of a tuner is that it isn't designed to make a bad load good. It is designed to take a good load and adjust for all the variables of temperature, humidity, etc., and allow me to tune that same load to shoot in many conditions. In these very preliminary results, I believe it will do that. But it is another tool that takes a lot of patience and compiling of data and learning to understand what it can do and when to do it. I'm not there yet.

Would like to hear from others with "tuner experiences" ...

 

[BoydAllen]

Here is a little history that you might enjoy. Years back, when I was doing some porduct writing for Shooters News magazine, I had become with Lou Murdica, a highly involved benchrest shooter (who was later instrumental in March scopes being imported into this country, and has done most of the heavy lifting that resulted in XMR 8208, Canadian A 2015 and the soon to be released LT 32 powder) and Lynwood Harrell, who I believe manufacturers the Hoehn tuner, which up to that point, (and currently for that matter), was mostly used for rimfire applications. Because Lou was in a good position to do definitive testing I asked if he would do some testing of the tuner that Lynwood makes, and I asked Lynwood if he was interested in having some centerfire testing done. They both thought it was a good idea, and over the years, quite a bit of testing has been done. Lou still shoots tuners, although a different style. Sometimes, if you can get the right people together, there is a lot that can be learned. Not too long after their collaboration began, Lou used a tuner on the heavy varmint rifle that he took to the nationals. I knew him well enough to know that he wouldn't have done that unless the rifle shot better in that configuration, and later, when I asked him about that specific point, he confirmed my suspicions.

 

[normmatzen]

I and my Mentor in Australia, use a tuner. I find it extracts the best of a perfect load at varying distances ( I shoot 600-1000yd BR).
I don't believe a tuner does any good unless, 1. You fully understand how a tuner works, 2. Are extremely lucky.

One needs to do a lot of research on tuners. Read about OBT, read Varmint Al, and read the articles by Border Barrels VERY carefully. And a good understanding of physics is most helpful.

And, a tuner does not make a poor barrel or load good!

 

[ReedG]

Interesting, Boyd. Seems there was lots of interest two or three years ago when IBS made tuners legal for a one-year test. I believe they are an asset to good shooting, without any debate, but probably the subject of lots of misunderstanding and conjecture. They seem to be very effective on the 6 PPC and as time and weather allow, I'll be "fooling around" a bit with mine.

Norm, about the only thing I know about Physics is "what goes up must come down". I've been reading Varmint Al's stuff for years. I make no claims that tuners make bad loads work. Or barrels. But, in my very preliminary experience with one, I believe it will help to keep a good load in tune in a good barrel. That's all I ask of it.

Yes, Harrell's does manufacture the tuners sold by Hoehn (also sold by Killough Shooting Sports). I believe Ron used to make them, ran out of time, and now Harrell's does. They are well made, ugly looking on a pretty rifle, and seem to do what I want.

 

[ebostrom]

Just want to add my two cents to this discussion. We have been testing tuners and tuner brakes for three years. We have tried them on long range target, bench rest, AR's, and 22 rim fire. We have devoloped a tuner and a tuner brake that works extremly well. We put our test results into an article that was published in the June 2012 issue of Presision Shooting Magazine. We now have them for sale on my web site http://www.bostromgunsmithing.com . You can also read the Presision Shooting article on my web site. We have been selling them since March of this year and we have already had five customers set new records using our tuners. The guys at the local gun club say that you either shoot with a RAS tuner or you'll get beat by someone who does. Eric

 

[ReedG]

Thanks for your info, Eric. Interesting web site. Nice-looking tuner. I would prefer a clamp-on or glue-on model, though. Your test info goes a long ways toward verifying the value of a tuner. Your charts prove two of my theories: there is more than one "sweet spot" (though the charts show there is one "best" spot); and it takes only a minute amount of movement. Your chart for the Harrell's tuner shows near identical results to my informal testing. Thanks again, and good luck with your products.

 

[Tozguy]

I and my Mentor in Australia, use a tuner. I find it extracts the best of a perfect load at varying distances ( I shoot 600-1000yd BR).
I don't believe a tuner does any good unless, 1. You fully understand how a tuner works, 2. Are extremely lucky.

One needs to do a lot of research on tuners. Read about OBT, read Varmint Al, and read the articles by Border Barrels VERY carefully. And a good understanding of physics is most helpful.

And, a tuner does not make a poor barrel or load good!

This is the link to the article at Border Barrels

http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/tuning_a_barrel.htm

 

[CaptainMal]

Eric,

Impressive article. That sure puts a stamp on the initial post regarding tuners.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have been playing with one of Eric's tuner brakes for a couple months now. I have it on a 6 dasher light gun. I have to say Im impressed. I don't think anyone will say tuners don't work, they are proven in rimfire br. I took my best match load, took off the brake and put on the tuner brake. Shooting 3 shot groups, and moving the tuner I found a window of probably 20 degrees where my groups shrank. I was consistanly shooting in the .3s at 200yds over flags. The gun never shot quite that well. I was pretty happy. Now, because you can put it in tune, you can take it out. I could open the groups to 1'' with the tuner. So always check your setting