Berger 7mm offerings question

[kyreloader]

I was looking on Gunstop Reloading Supplies and noticed new offerings from Berger to their 7mm line. I have and am shooting the 180g Hybrid and 180g Match/Hunting VLDs.

On that site, they list 175g Match Target XLD and 182g Match Target XLRBT bullets.

Does anyone know how these bullets differ from the Hybrid and VLD designs? Any pros/cons of these bullets versus the Hybrid or VLD design?

I looked on the Berger website to no avail, I also have an email out to Bryan Litz, but no response as of yet. (Very busy guy, so not disappointed).

Any information is appreciated.

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

Eric Stecker w/ Berger posted this yesterday on the LR Forum:

For the sake of clarity, the 7mm X Bullets as they have come to be known were developed for a military opportunity that did not pan out. The goal was to produce a 7mm bullet that will stay supersonic at 1 mile (I don't recall at what MV). Since we did not know which design and weight would accomplish this goal we decided to make all three (VLD, tangent or BT and Hybrid). When the dust settled the Hybrid produced the highest BC.

We made short runs of these bullets for testing and spread them around to see how they shoot. Frankly, it was our intension to see which one shot the best. The plan was to add one version to the line and moth ball the other two designs with our other experimental project that did not make it into the line. The problem is all 3 bullets performed well in testing. One design out shot the other two for one tester but not by much and another tester reported that a different design worked best for them.

The 180 gr Hybrid, having the highest BC, is proving to be the front runner so far but it is not head and shoulders above the others. So I am left with two general directions. The first is to stick to the plan to release just one design or to release two or three designs and see what happens. I decided on the later. Unfortunately, we did not have the jackets needed to make more than the initial test quantities. We are making 7mm jackets but they are the standard thickness for the hunting bullets.

We should be finished with these jackets in the next 3-4 weeks and will be switching to the thick jackets as soon as possible. We will be making large quantities of each version and will let all of you decide which 7mm heavy bullet rules the roost. When these bullets become available there will be 5 versions to choose from.

28404 - 7mm 180 gr BT (Medium Tangent Ogive) - G7 = .314
28405 - 7mm 180 gr VLD (Long Secant Ogive) - G7 = .337
28406 - 7mm 182 gr XBT (Extra Long Tangent Ogive) - G7 = .332
28407 - 7mm 180 gr Hyb (Extra Long Hybrid Ogive) - G7 = .345
28408 - 7mm 175 gr XLD (Extra Long Secant Ogive) - G7 = .336

Regards,
Eric

 

[kyreloader]

Thanks Mark, that is exactly what I was looking for. ;D

 

[holstil]

I thought I read somewhere that Berger had a 7mm 175 hybrid in that mix that has the highest bc other than there 338 lap. I was hoping to get my hands on such a bullet. Maybe it was one that didn't make it to the final.
Jim

 

[EricStecker]

Jim,

If you can refer me back to the post where I made the statement that the 175 gr XLD has the highest BC I'd like to correct this misinformation there as well. The truth is that the 180 gr Hybrid has the highest BC.

My comments were based on a mistake that I made regarding the fact that the 175 gr can achieve higher MV due to its lighter weight. This is true but it still does not change the fact that the Hybrid has a higher BC and is the highest BC bullet in existence in 308 cal and smaller.

It is possible that you can achieve a slightly flatter trajectory with the 175 gr XLD but this result is situational based on load, environment and range. It will be interesting to see how these bullets compare to each other when we make enough for them to be shot by many different rifles.

Another unrelated point I'll address while we're on the subject is that all three of these new bullets were made with a slightly larger hollow point. This was done purposefully since the requirement for the original opportunity was 1 MOA of vertical dispersion at 1 mile. The slightly larger hollow point allows us to better control the bullet OAL and meplat uniformity directly affecting vertical.

The upside for shooters is that those who repoint their bullets can realize a significant increase (roughly 8% depending on the size of the repointed meplat) in BC by repointing these bullets. They already have a very high BC by doing nothing so those who don't repoint will still realize excellent trajectory.

Lastly, we are particularly excited about the Hybrid bullet. Bryan has done a remarkable job of designing a bullet with both a high BC and a lack of sensitivity to seating depth (unlike the VLD). If results continue as we have seen so far you will see an entire line of high BC Hybrid design bullets from Berger.

Regards,
Eric

 

[holstil]

Eric, not trying to pester you on this, but any chance you can add what the BC of that 175 Hybrid is/was? Maybe I am mistaken and there never was a 175 hybrid. Just curios to see the difference between the XLD and the Hybrid for the 175 if there were such a gem.
I can do some testin for ya. ;D I got a new barrel to burn up.
I was just looking for the article and am unable to find it. I'm not certain who the author was. I will keep searching.

I am interested to see how they point up.
Jim

 

[EricStecker]

Jim,

My apologies for not clarifying this in my other post. I understand the reason for the post length limiting function of this forum but as a long winded poster I find it difficult to be both brief and thorough.

The 175 gr is a VLD with an extremely long secant nose so it has been dubbed an XLD. We do not make the 175 gr in a Hybrid design. I am the one who posted that the 175 gr was the highest BC bullet in existence (up to and including 308 cal) and have been looking for the thread where I posted this misinformation so it can be corrected. I knew exactly what you are talking about when I read your post.

In 7mm we make only the 180 gr in the Hybrid version for now. Like I mentioned before, if the results continue to be positive we will expand into different weights. We also make a 338 cal Hybrid.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Steve Blair]

Thanks for the accurate information, Eric. Nothing like getting it from the horse's mouth.

As one who shoots your excellent 210 VLDs and BT-LRs in caliber .30; I would really like to see a Hybrid in that caliber. I shoot the 7mm Hyrbrids in .284 Win and have found them everything they were represented. In my tests, they are no more accurate than the VLDs, but I have been able to back .030 away from the lands with no accuracy degradation.

A caliber .30 210-220 Hybrid for 10-11" twists would be a welcome addition.

 

[EricStecker]

If I told you that this was already in the works would you keep it to yourself so we don't get a bunch of phone calls asking questions about the new 30 cal Hybrid?

Oops. Did I say that out loud? :-X

Before anyone calls the 30 cal Hybrid bullets will not be available even for testing until later this year.

Regards,
Eric

 

[HPMike800]

Since this is turning into a "hey Eric what have you done for me latley thread" Has there been any movement on the new 6mm 105?

 

[Steve Blair]

Thanks, Eric. No phone calls.

 

[Lbart]

Eric,
I think this is what you are looking for: dated 04-27-2010 10:05 AM on BR.com

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?69076-what-is-the-deal-with-berger-180&daysprune=365

Keep making great bullets.

Larry Bartholome

 

[holstil]

Yep, that's the one I read. Not sure how I came up with a 175 hybrid. The mind can be a terrible thing.
Thanks, for the clarification.
Jim

 

[wvuredneck09]

How do the hybrids do on skin instead of game? Are the suitable for hunting Elk/Whitetail?

 

[EricStecker]

Thank you, Larry, for finding this thread. I have posted the correction.

Regarding the use of Hybrid bullets on game, we are very interested in this question and do not have an answer yet. Our first step is to make sure that the Hybrid bullet design is the real deal when it comes to having both a high BC and a reduced sensitivity to seating depth.

The target competition shooters are the best people to answer this question definitively. Once we clearly understand that this design is the real McCoy we will test it in media. If performance is similar to our Hunting VLD we will move to testing it on game.

The implications of what this means to our hunting bullets is very significant. Imagine a hunting bullet with VLD like trajectory performance that doesn't care whether you jam it or jump it and by how much. Such things keep me up at night like a kid on Christmas Eve.

Regards,
Eric

 

[EricStecker]

I didn't forget about you Mike. This post length limiting function works really well. The new 6mm 105 gr bullet (which is several months away from being ready so no calls please) design has been completed and the dies are being made.

When I say the dies are being made what I mean is that they are on the schedule to be made but will not actually be made for some months. We have several dies (both back up and new designs) being made so these are in the "line" so to speak.

To give you a preview, Bryan found it especially challenging to design a 105 gr class bullet that outperformed the original VLD designed by Bill Davis. He has succeeded in doing so with this new design but now it is up to us to physically produce what Bryan has created.

The shape of this bullet is a secret and it is not a VLD. I can't tell you what design it will be but I can tell you that it rhymes with Ingrid.

Regards,
Eric

 

[falconpilot]

Eric,

Having our 1000 yard range on our farm, I've had the chance to shoot a couple of varmints with the 180 hybrids through my .284, while load testing from the bench when they presented the chance.

It was at diffferent distances, varying from 25 yards, out to 600 yards. Again these are small critters, armadillo and such, but in all cases, they have been literally blown in half, not just a hole punch through them. The bullets seem to be expanding very well. I know it's not very scienctific, just what I've noted. From what I've seen, I think they be deadly on larger game, if they don't expand to much, too fast...

 

[wvuredneck09]

It would be nice for sure, especially in mag fed hunting rifles where jamming isn't always an option. Keep us updated on this for sure.

 

[Ironworker]

I read some where you ( Berger) were making bullets for the military that had dimples on them like a Golf ball ? Did those ever work out ?

 

[nhm16]

I read some where you ( Berger) were making bullets for the military that had dimples on them like a Golf ball ? Did those ever work out ?

I think you read about these dimpled bulletins in the Daily Bulletin on April 1, 2009, if you know what I mean