Berger 6mm 105 gr. Hybrid Target

[Killing Time]

I have loaded probably 1500+ rounds of the Berger 6mm 105 gr. hybrid target over the last year or so between 2 different chambers and like most, have really enjoyed the performance and accuracy. I have never had any issues with this bullet until the other day. I am a little over halfway through a 500 count box of these bullets and noticed some issues one evening while seating bullets on a 50 round run. I noticed that every few rounds, I would get a reading when measured with my calipers where the bullet didn't seat as deep as what I obviously had my die set to, and was off .005-.008". This happened probably 8-10 times throughout the seating of 50 rounds. When I finished, I completely disassembled the seating die to inspect and try to figure out what was going on. Everything with the die was fine.

My next step was to start looking at the bullets. As rudimentary as it sounds, I measured some bullets with my calipers and comparator bushing from ogive to the base of the bullet. I started with 10 bullets, measured each and wrote down the measurements and staged the bullets in the order they were measured. When I finished measuring, I compared the results and had up to a .015" variance between the lowest to highest measurement. Out of 10 bullets measured, there were 4 that had a reasonably higher base to ogive measurement. So I did another 3 tests, 10 bullets each test, and came up with the same results. The only difference was the number of bullets per sample that were out of spec, which varied from just 2 on one test, to 6 on the last test.

I reached out to Berger support and explained this process to them via email. Their reply was that it was most likely my die, the seating stem specifically. They claimed the tip of the bullet was possibly bottoming out in the seating stem. I quickly ruled this out. Then they basically told me my calipers were not accurate and giving skewed readings. I even offered to send them a sample of the bullets for them to measure and apparently they were not interested in that. For whatever reason, certain bullets from this lot have a different base to ogive measurement that is severely impacting bullet seating consistency. I have not had a chance to fire any of these loaded rounds since I ran upon this issue, so I have no data on the affects of this problem. But I will add that I have loaded several other 6mm bullets after I noticed this issue, including the Hornady Aeromatch 105 gr. and have had zero issues with any of them.

Anyone have any ideas or input? I really hate to discard 200+ bullets remaining in this box.

 

[ShtrRdy]

In general, (not Berger related), the seating stem contacts the bullet at a different place on the ogive than the Bullet Comparitor. If possible, remove your seating stem and repeat your sample measurement exercise recording the length from base of bullet to top of seating stem and the length from base of bullet to Bullet Comparitor.

Double check your seating stem to ensure the tip of the bullet is not touching. If the tip is not touching contact Berger again and explain what you measured this second time.

I've had mostly good experiences with Berger bullets. I did have one batch which had a pressure ring diameter that was something like 0.001" larger than the bearing surface. This was causing me problems. I sent a couple samples to Berger and they replace the box of 500.

 

[RegionRat]

The base to ogive measurement may not have played a role on your seating depth issues.

If you consider that the seating stem is the datum, then it really doesn't matter how long the base to ogive runs.

What we need to figure out, is why the seating depth variation started up, and if it even matters on the target.

When you talked about the seating length using your calipers, does that mean those measurements used a comparator or did those measurements include the tip?

By chance, how full is your case? Is there any chance you are crunching down on the powder column?

I hope you get a chance to run your test with enough samples of "long ones" and "short ones". That will tell you if you should even care. Good Luck and in for the range report.

 

[Killing Time]

The base to ogive measurement may not have played a role on your seating depth issues.

If you consider that the seating stem is the datum, then it really doesn't matter how long the base to ogive runs.

What we need to figure out, is why the seating depth variation started up, and if it even matters on the target.

When you talked about the seating length using your calipers, does that mean those measurements used a comparator or did those measurements include the tip?

By chance, how full is your case? Is there any chance you are crunching down on the powder column?

I hope you get a chance to run your test with enough samples of "long ones" and "short ones". That will tell you if you should even care. Good Luck and in for the range report.

The measurements I'm taking is with a bullet comparator. I have however measured the length of the bullets in question and although they're hard to measure exact with the open tip being uneven, there were no wild inconsistencies.

As far as case fill, these are 6br rounds and should be nowhere near compressed loads. But I will double check that to make sure.

 

[SSchnd]

What Seating Die are you using, sorry if I missed that info if provided. I have had a Forster Untra Micro Seating stem crack, and that gave me a click or a sticky grab when pulling the ram back up. Very hard to see it when the stem is removed but it was enough to give me odd BTO readings.
Check the seating stem.

 

[Killing Time]

What Seating Die are you using, sorry if I missed that info if provided. I have had a Forster Untra Micro Seating stem crack, and that gave me a click or a sticky grab when pulling the ram back up. Very hard to see it when the stem is removed but it was enough to give me odd BTO readings.
Check the seating stem.

I am using the same die. I have actually replaced the seating stem a couple weeks ago due to some issues I was having with my 6 arc to rule out the die. That ended up being a separate problem.

 

[JFrank]

Anyone have any ideas or input? I really hate to discard 200+ bullets remaining in this box.

Production bullets make me crazy, I no longer use them but when I did I had to start by qualifying the nose geometry, sorting base to seater contact point into small batches and then sort the majority from base to ogive into small batches. After that I sort the best of the best by overall length into very small batches for long range only.
Outliers are foulers, sighters or fire form bullets.

 

[cp255]

Check your primers. When this happens to me it normally means I have a primer protruding a few thou. While measuring your OAL with calipers one of them should be over the primer pocket. Hold it up the the light and see if the caliper is resting on the brass or the primer. Should be on the brass.

 

[Killing Time]

Check your primers. When this happens to me it normally means I have a primer protruding a few thou. While measuring your OAL with calipers one of them should be over the primer pocket. Hold it up the the light and see if the caliper is resting on the brass or the primer. Should be on the brass.

Yep, that's the first thing I checked. I have some Peterson brass that does this where the primer doesn't get seated deep enough, no matter what I do, so I check everything now.

 

[HTSmith]

The base to ogive measurement may not have played a role on your seating depth issues.

If you consider that the seating stem is the datum, then it really doesn't matter how long the base to ogive runs

This. However .015” sounds like a lot. When I had this problem it turned out to be differences in neck tension/inteference

 

[rwj]

My experience with the Berger 105 hybrids has been very consistent regarding bullet base to ogive. I have detected 0.012” BTO variation between lots, but never more than 0.003” within each lot, some of that being operator induced! Any chance that the lot you’re using now was commingled with another?

 

[Killing Time]

My experience with the Berger 105 hybrids has been very consistent regarding bullet base to ogive. I have detected 0.012” BTO variation between lots, but never more than 0.003” within each lot, some of that being operator induced! Any chance that the lot you’re using now was commingled with another?

This is exactly what I have been thinking. If you look at the Berger 105 gr. VLD compared to the hybrid target, they look almost identical to me. And as I mentioned before, I measured the base to ogive on the Hornady Aeromatch, which has a very similar bullet profile as the hybrid target, my variance was .0015".

 

[Killing Time]

This. However .015” sounds like a lot. When I had this problem it turned out to be differences in neck tension/inteference

I have been using new brass with these loads, so I run them through a mandrel beforehand.

 

[ruthless11]

I have been using new brass with these loads, so I run them through a mandrel beforehand.

do you lube the inside of the necks?brass on brass causes too much friction and may push the bullet too far into the seating stem or vice versa

 

[Killing Time]

do you lube the inside of the necks?brass on brass causes too much friction and may push the bullet too far into the seating stem or vice versa

Yes I use a dry neck lube

 

[Northridge]

I have loaded probably 1500+ rounds of the Berger 6mm 105 gr. hybrid target over the last year or so between 2 different chambers and like most, have really enjoyed the performance and accuracy. I have never had any issues with this bullet until the other day. I am a little over halfway through a 500 count box of these bullets and noticed some issues one evening while seating bullets on a 50 round run. I noticed that every few rounds, I would get a reading when measured with my calipers where the bullet didn't seat as deep as what I obviously had my die set to, and was off .005-.008". This happened probably 8-10 times throughout the seating of 50 rounds. When I finished, I completely disassembled the seating die to inspect and try to figure out what was going on. Everything with the die was fine.

My next step was to start looking at the bullets. As rudimentary as it sounds, I measured some bullets with my calipers and comparator bushing from ogive to the base of the bullet. I started with 10 bullets, measured each and wrote down the measurements and staged the bullets in the order they were measured. When I finished measuring, I compared the results and had up to a .015" variance between the lowest to highest measurement. Out of 10 bullets measured, there were 4 that had a reasonably higher base to ogive measurement. So I did another 3 tests, 10 bullets each test, and came up with the same results. The only difference was the number of bullets per sample that were out of spec, which varied from just 2 on one test, to 6 on the last test.

I reached out to Berger support and explained this process to them via email. Their reply was that it was most likely my die, the seating stem specifically. They claimed the tip of the bullet was possibly bottoming out in the seating stem. I quickly ruled this out. Then they basically told me my calipers were not accurate and giving skewed readings. I even offered to send them a sample of the bullets for them to measure and apparently they were not interested in that. For whatever reason, certain bullets from this lot have a different base to ogive measurement that is severely impacting bullet seating consistency. I have not had a chance to fire any of these loaded rounds since I ran upon this issue, so I have no data on the affects of this problem. But I will add that I have loaded several other 6mm bullets after I noticed this issue, including the Hornady Aeromatch 105 gr. and have had zero issues with any of them.

Anyone have any ideas or input? I really hate to discard 200+ bullets remaining in this box.

“Your not crazy”

“It’s a thing”

Shawn Williams

 

[Dave Way]

This is a different lot of 500 correct? Unfortunately the most logical reason is bullets from several dies going into the same lot but Berger will deny that every time.

I have seen it before between different lots which is understandable. Once within a single lot I did see the problem. That simply shouldn’t happen if they are actually coming off the same point up die. Short of too much play in the press, or a lubricant issue, it is nearly impossible for a die to give big variations in base to ogive. Think about it, the die is a fixed shape. It doesn’t change much if at all after hundreds of thousands of bullets. It certainly doesn’t change while making a box of 500!

That shape is ‘fixed” but the position of that ogive relative to the base can change if there is play in the press. That results in the same ogive but it is in a different place relative to the base and that changes the bearing surface. I doubt Berger runs wore out presses but…

Answer:

Shoot quality custom bullets and the problem will be gone. I promise you that. Besides, the price gap between custom and factory bullets has really narrowed.

Dave Way.

 

[kyotekiller25]

I routinely have the same issue with Bergers and ELDMs when using a Forster ultra micrometer. I'm not sorting bullets, but they both vary by as much as .010" in length and .005" in ogives across a box. I've just got in the habit of seating long, and working my way down incremantally to where it needs to be. It works, but it's a super slow process. I just find it to be very annoying and kind of BS when you have a variance of up to .010" on a seated round with a good seater and "match" bullets...Such is life I guess.