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Berger 245 LRHT BC

FeMan

Gold $$ Contributor
I was shooting powder ladders with a couple 300 NMIs and N570 yesterday and decided to get some data to calculate the BC of the Berger 245 LRHT using velocity degradation while I was at it. I normally do the BC calcs at much farther distances (just before going transonic) but my LR spot is a muddy mess right now so I decided to get something rough at least.

I wasn't completely shocked that the 8 twist didn't quite make advertised BC. I knew the 9 twist would be lower, but it was a lot lower than I had anticipated. The biggest surprise was the variability of the BC of the individual bullets in the data set. The extremes were close to plus or minus 10% above the average. Yikes!

I am wondering if others have had similar high BC variances with these bullets and if so, do you sort them, re-tip them or do anything else to help alleviate related issues? I need to do something or these will be poke-and-hope rifles for our ELR season.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Data below. Thanks!

1772981944383.png
 
Is that a 2 Garmin test? If so:

1. Mad props for getting the bullet through the 18" Garmin trigger window at transonic distances for that rig.
2. More or less, kind of, sort of, the velocity decay for these tests looks like 700 fps. Shooting it down to 1300 fps would be closer to 1800 fps of decay. The result is the uncertainty in the velocity measurement is now contributing 2.5X as much to the BC scatter. The stated accuracy of the Garmin is 0.1% or 3 fps at your velocities. Relying on 2 of them would give an RMS error expectation of 4.5 fps. The problem is I've never seen what they actually mean by "accuracy". Is it the maximum systemic error of an individual unit or 1 SD for random errors? There is no doubt that the Garmin is a few steps ahead of the Labradar on triggering and insensitivity to cosine error, but the Labradar gave trace data and signal to noise ratios for individual shots. We can't set up a batch of test ammunition with exactly the same velocities, and I think it's absurd to compare the Garmin to anything optical or the Labradar, so we're left with testing 2 Garmins against each other. It's on my to do list. Side by side, then check at the extremes of the triggering window, then angle one to see just how insensitive it is to cosine error.

I seriously doubt you're shooting anything with plus or minus 8%. Berger wouldn't let anything like that out the door and the accuracy would be shot by the time the BC opens up that much from barrel wear.

How many rounds on each of those barrels and how long are they? Do you usually test with 10+ shot strings? Are abrasives used to clean the barrel? My N570 fueled 300 Norma went 550 rounds before the BC spread opened up from about 2% to over 4. It was only N570 fueled for the first half of that. it would have been OK for inside a mile for half again that and the groups probably wouldn't have opened up until then.

I saved a 245 Berger AB CDM data sheet from the web that gives 8% BC variation for those bullets unsorted from a fresh barrel. Culling 1 bullet would have cut that in half. Culling 3 to below 2%. If you could figure out which 3 to cull.

Anything with a HP used for ELR will do better with sorting by length. One of the Litz books has the BC sensitivity as 1% per 0.010" of length by way of its effect on meplat diameter. That was for a 30 caliber 200 grain hybrid iirc and it'd need to be scaled. That relationship only had a 50% correlation. My take on that is there are other significant contributors and the biggest is likely the barrel. Particularly the condition, size, and alignment of the throat. I tracked several barrels through their life cycles. The BC dropped and the BC spread opened up in a reasonably predictable way. I estimated BC spread by vertical dispersion on the 2200 yard target. Originally I corrected each shot and applied error bars for the precision. If the strings are long enough, say 10 rounds, and the velocity spread low enough, say 20 fps, just watching the length of the vertical stripe works after calcing it several times. These days, I track the upward velocity migration and use that as an estimate for increasing BC spread. I'm not shooting as much as I used to and don't want to waste 2K days on tired barrels. The resolution of the detailed calcs is maybe 2%. The BC spread fades into the noise below that. 2 -2.5K yards is the sweet spot for the BC spread to pop out of the other noise but before other realities start obscuring things.

Early days, I tested just pointing and while it made the BC better, it left the BC spread. The bullet needs a meplat with sharp edges and a diameter of about 15% of the bore. Near as I can tell, that's one thing the bullets known for low BC variation share. My take on it is it's a sacrifice of some zero yaw BC for greatly reduced BC sensitivity to initial levels of yaw. My guess is the yaw variation is what's opening up as the throat wears. The process that worked the best for me was culling out the truly weird bullets, trimming the rest to a common length, using a "hollow pointing" tool to clean out the trimming swarf, then pointing to leave a 15% of bore meplat. After seating, it shouldn't be obvious that the bullets have ever been touched by human hands, much less stamped by the seating stem. I spend a lot of time detailing seating stems. Low seating pressure requirements help and I lube the boat tail junction/back of the bearing surface with Imperial before seating to further reduce the force on the bullet.

Moving from BC spread to BC truing, the effect of air temperature is often overlooked. At 2K a 10 F error in the air temperature estimate appears very similar to a 1% change in BC. The air temperature isn't likely to change that much during a string, but it's unlikely the average air temperature along the path of the bullet is within 5 degrees of the shooting position. Overcast days after overcast nights are the best for truing. After that, learning to lean on the air temperature used by the solver 5-10 degrees can help first round hits beyond a mile. Adjust up after a clear night, adjust down at noon on a sunny day. As with most of this, the largest thing to avoid is end to end errors. 10 degrees up when truing, 10 degrees low at the match. 2% BC error trued into your solver....
 
I would also be curious to know what instruments he used to capture velocity at both ends.

The huge disparities in MV can't help you in trying to figure out what you are trying to figure out. I have a very hard time believing that your data is accurate- as far as MV and remaining velocity numbers both being accurate.
 
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Is that a 2 Garmin test? If so:

1. Mad props for getting the bullet through the 18" Garmin trigger window at transonic distances for that rig.
2. More or less, kind of, sort of, the velocity decay for these tests looks like 700 fps. Shooting it down to 1300 fps would be closer to 1800 fps of decay. The result is the uncertainty in the velocity measurement is now contributing 2.5X as much to the BC scatter. The stated accuracy of the Garmin is 0.1% or 3 fps at your velocities. Relying on 2 of them would give an RMS error expectation of 4.5 fps. The problem is I've never seen what they actually mean by "accuracy". Is it the maximum systemic error of an individual unit or 1 SD for random errors? There is no doubt that the Garmin is a few steps ahead of the Labradar on triggering and insensitivity to cosine error, but the Labradar gave trace data and signal to noise ratios for individual shots. We can't set up a batch of test ammunition with exactly the same velocities, and I think it's absurd to compare the Garmin to anything optical or the Labradar, so we're left with testing 2 Garmins against each other. It's on my to do list. Side by side, then check at the extremes of the triggering window, then angle one to see just how insensitive it is to cosine error.

I seriously doubt you're shooting anything with plus or minus 8%. Berger wouldn't let anything like that out the door and the accuracy would be shot by the time the BC opens up that much from barrel wear.

How many rounds on each of those barrels and how long are they? Do you usually test with 10+ shot strings? Are abrasives used to clean the barrel? My N570 fueled 300 Norma went 550 rounds before the BC spread opened up from about 2% to over 4. It was only N570 fueled for the first half of that. it would have been OK for inside a mile for half again that and the groups probably wouldn't have opened up until then.

I saved a 245 Berger AB CDM data sheet from the web that gives 8% BC variation for those bullets unsorted from a fresh barrel. Culling 1 bullet would have cut that in half. Culling 3 to below 2%. If you could figure out which 3 to cull.

Anything with a HP used for ELR will do better with sorting by length. One of the Litz books has the BC sensitivity as 1% per 0.010" of length by way of its effect on meplat diameter. That was for a 30 caliber 200 grain hybrid iirc and it'd need to be scaled. That relationship only had a 50% correlation. My take on that is there are other significant contributors and the biggest is likely the barrel. Particularly the condition, size, and alignment of the throat. I tracked several barrels through their life cycles. The BC dropped and the BC spread opened up in a reasonably predictable way. I estimated BC spread by vertical dispersion on the 2200 yard target. Originally I corrected each shot and applied error bars for the precision. If the strings are long enough, say 10 rounds, and the velocity spread low enough, say 20 fps, just watching the length of the vertical stripe works after calcing it several times. These days, I track the upward velocity migration and use that as an estimate for increasing BC spread. I'm not shooting as much as I used to and don't want to waste 2K days on tired barrels. The resolution of the detailed calcs is maybe 2%. The BC spread fades into the noise below that. 2 -2.5K yards is the sweet spot for the BC spread to pop out of the other noise but before other realities start obscuring things.

Early days, I tested just pointing and while it made the BC better, it left the BC spread. The bullet needs a meplat with sharp edges and a diameter of about 15% of the bore. Near as I can tell, that's one thing the bullets known for low BC variation share. My take on it is it's a sacrifice of some zero yaw BC for greatly reduced BC sensitivity to initial levels of yaw. My guess is the yaw variation is what's opening up as the throat wears. The process that worked the best for me was culling out the truly weird bullets, trimming the rest to a common length, using a "hollow pointing" tool to clean out the trimming swarf, then pointing to leave a 15% of bore meplat. After seating, it shouldn't be obvious that the bullets have ever been touched by human hands, much less stamped by the seating stem. I spend a lot of time detailing seating stems. Low seating pressure requirements help and I lube the boat tail junction/back of the bearing surface with Imperial before seating to further reduce the force on the bullet.

Moving from BC spread to BC truing, the effect of air temperature is often overlooked. At 2K a 10 F error in the air temperature estimate appears very similar to a 1% change in BC. The air temperature isn't likely to change that much during a string, but it's unlikely the average air temperature along the path of the bullet is within 5 degrees of the shooting position. Overcast days after overcast nights are the best for truing. After that, learning to lean on the air temperature used by the solver 5-10 degrees can help first round hits beyond a mile. Adjust up after a clear night, adjust down at noon on a sunny day. As with most of this, the largest thing to avoid is end to end errors. 10 degrees up when truing, 10 degrees low at the match. 2% BC error trued into your solver....
Thanks for the reply and insight! You probably don't remember but Dan Bertoccini and I came to your place (I think that was you) and shot with you probably 10 to 15 years ago. I had the 284 Win with the ES of 1 fps :-)

I agree that the results seem questionable. I have done this for years with 180 and pointed & tipped 184s and have had great results. That doesn't mean this isn't a failed test with some error somewhere but it has yielded believable results that have proven themselves in the field in the past. So that's why I am asking for help/opinions.

A few answers to your questions.

The MV was taken using a Garmin XERO. The target velocities were gathered from my Shotmarker. I am betting the Shotmarker accuracy is less than the Garmin, but with a big enough sample size (like 25 rounds instead of 10) this has worked in the past with other bullets. I have tested the 184s the most and got the BCs to between 0.370 and 0.375 with very low variability. On those at least, through testing I have the trimming ang pointing down.

The Brux is 32" and the Bartlein is 30 inches. The Brux has 250 rounds on it and the Bartlein has 350 rounds.

These strings were shot on a cloudy day with no real ground warming. It was cool and breezy.

Thanks for the info and let me know if this additional data makes anything clearer.

BTW, I measured OAL of two boxes from the same lot. I got an OAL spread of 0.017". With the 180s and 184s I am used to seeing less than half that variance. I usually sort the 184s by 0.001" increments and have five piles. Due to the variance, I sorted the 245s by 0.025" increments and ended up with seven piles. It was a bell-curve as you would expect.
 
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I would also be curious to know what instruments he used to capture velocity at both ends.

The huge disparities in MV can't help you in trying to figure out what you are trying to figure out. I have a very hard time believing that your data is accurate- as far as MV and remaining velocity numbers both being accurate.

The data was taken from a Garmin Xero and a Shotmarker. That velocity data does look horrible! But to clarify the variances in velocity, it was a powder ladder so each shot was a different powder charge on N570. My ladder was 85.4 to 89.8 and my wife's was 87.5 to 91.9 grains.
 
Of course I remember. Those were 2 of the most formative trips I've had. A 284 that scored with everything else, including my 7mm/338 lapua, on a 20"x 30" target at 2050 yards in lunchtime winds. I spent a few years chasing your velocity spreads. The other was the day I was told the bullets from my 7mm/338 Lapua Improved were turning to smoke rings at 200 yards. Those smoke rings led to a bunch of video. The stage before smoke rings was "wounded ducks". A kink in the trace could be seen, sometimes the video would catch some jacket fluttering down. The stage before that was brutal vertical from a gun that was tearing up the 2200 yard target 200 rounds earlier.

I tried to cover too much ground in the earlier post and the math is wrong. The error sensitivity should be calced on the velocity difference a 1% change in BC produces at a given distance. About 7 fps per 1% BC at 650 yards for your rig, it'd be about 13 fps per 1% BC at 1500 yards. I've tried to come up with tests I can do on the fly during regular testing and a couple trips that suggest the BC spread is over 4%, plus or minus 2%, means the barrel is replaced. That's been heavily reinforced during component shortages. Fresh barrels are usually below 2%. How much I can't be sure with the tools I have.

I have a ShotMarker I primarily use for studying group statistics. The chrono feature is nice, but I'm pretty sure the second sensor on each corner is primarily to help with the bullet approach angle needed to refine the position estimate. The error budget on the speed estimate for a pair of acoustic sensors a couple inches apart and whole feet away from the bullet can't be pretty. Sometimes the SD at the ShotMarker is similar to the SD at the muzzle estimated with a LabRadar or Garmin, but usually it's not. Sometimes it's really ugly and shot by shot comparisons of the velocity drop at 100 yards are seldom pretty. I'm not sure why, it's of little concern at 100 yards. You might have had one of those days with the ShotMarker. I have a Hubble sized Shotmarker frame for use at 2K but still haven't used it. I was going to work with muzzle velocity corrected position data and compare what the speed estimates gave.

The reason I count the LabRadar as one of the key developments in ELR is it, probably more than anything else, made shooters aware that something else large was in their vertical error budgets. Reducing the velocity ES stopped significantly reducing the vertical at 2K at about 20 fps ES. Low hits with above average velocities were another clue. A couple years later, Litz published his thoughts on it and the AB CDMs made it pretty mainstream.
 
I went straight to the data on my first read of your post.

My first thoughts were his velocity spreads were a lot better when he shot with me and what's he complaining about? At least his bullets are making it to the target.

13 ES
10 Shot strings
Twice
3/10 with a 284
Twice
Same as the 300 Norma, 7/338, and 300WM. The 30s had both won URSA 2K matches. They had to take down 375s and 50s to do it.

That's the way I remember it anyway.

And the guy you were mentoring went on to great things in PRS.
 
I was pretty sure that was you. I should have stuck around for some ELR lessons! If you see CA Shipbuilder tell him I said hello. I shot with him at NCPPRC for a few years.

You are making me think that I somehow got some bad data. I hadn't noticed it but I do see a consistent drop in BC from shots 1 to 12 in both rifles. Within the range of velocities, it should be pretty consistent. Maybe something went squirrely with my Shotmarker over the course of the session. I have had the wind rotate it some in the past and that made in cranky. There was a 10 mph wind from 7:00 that built during the session.

I don't have any more time to mess with this before next weeks match, so I think I will start with the published G7 and true it as best I can during the match. Then I can re-test again when I get a chance.

Thanks again Shaun!
 
The data was taken from a Garmin Xero and a Shotmarker. That velocity data does look horrible! But to clarify the variances in velocity, it was a powder ladder so each shot was a different powder charge on N570. My ladder was 85.4 to 89.8 and my wife's was 87.5 to 91.9 grains.
Is shotmarker accurate enough capturing speeds for such a test?

My experience with The LRHT Bullets BC variation is typically far superior to that and my buddy that shoots them has similar vertical as the 190LRHT i shoot.

I believe he uses a .430 g7 and a 8.5 twist.
Personally with that bullet I’d just try running the box BC as it’s been quite accurate on the 245 and 190’s.
 
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Is shotmarker accurate enough capturing speeds for such a test?

My experience with The LRHT Bullets BC variation is typically far superior to that and my buddy that shoots them has similar vertical as the 190LRHT i shoot.

I believe he uses a .430 g7 and a 8.5 twist.
Personally with that bullet I’d just try running the box BC as it’s been quite accurate on the 245 and 190’s.
I am not sure that the Shotmarker is ideal for this, but it does work pretty well. I have done this same test process and equipment with other bullets and had great success. Here is a sample I did from last year to double check a load before a match:

1773064676665.png

I think in my test with the 245s, something went wrong with my Shotmarker. Although it has worked well for this many times in the past, if you look at the data for the 245 posted up top there is a consistent drop in BC from shots 1 to 12 in both rifles. The variance should be random and not a straight-line decline for two rifles. In addition, the initial BCs with the first few shots are what you would expect, and then they just plummeted. I really think that my issue was bad data related to the Shotmarker velocities.

I agree with you - run the published BC for now. I'll do this again in the next few weeks at 1400 yards and hope for better results.
 
This is a state of the art discussion on truing by a guy that's explained it to a lot of people and taken the time to script a presentation.


There is another one somewhere with Doc narrating that has a table in it summarizing truing strategies.

The cliff notes are:

After the introduction of the LabRadar and the ability to have the precise muzzle velocity of every shot you take, muzzle velocity calibrations are obsolete. If the solution needs truing, the problem is somewhere else.

BC calibrations produce better results if they're done at maximum available distance but no further than the point velocities have dropped to Mach 1.2-1.4. The reason for this is small changes in BC have small effects on trajectory at closer distances. Those small changes are buried in larger ones and any errors in your trued BC will propagate to larger problems than you had in the first place at a mile or more. Put bluntly, don't do ELR BC calibrations or checks at 600 yards.

AB uses a Drop Scale Factor concept to correct the mess that starts at transonic. It's a factor without effect before the transonic. The technical term is engineering fudge factor. They can be stacked like the old solvers that let you enter a Mach Number / BC table. Used correctly, it's effective at reducing errors in the drag curve to the point that the other things you don't know are larger problems.

I've penciled it out a few times and always come back to calibrating on drop rather than target velocity. Yes, it's messy and there is still uncertainty. A responsive vertical backstop works best. Any slope on the backstop and the vertical will need to be corrected for the impact distance from the target as well as muzzle velocity. An advantage of this approach is it can be applied when you're practicing. I'm not sure how I'd true in flat terrain. None of this should be done with 3 or even a single 5 shot string.
 
View attachment 1750344

I agree with you - run the published BC for now. I'll do this again in the next few weeks at 1400 yards and hope for better results.
Are you calculating the BC in the spreadsheet?

The first shot at the first target is the only one that is completely reliant on the solver and your first guess at conditions. After that, we should be applying what we learned from the earlier shots and targets.
 
Are you calculating the BC in the spreadsheet?

The first shot at the first target is the only one that is completely reliant on the solver and your first guess at conditions. After that, we should be applying what we learned from the earlier shots and targets.
I record the muzzle velocity, target velocity, distance to the target, station pressure, temp and humidity at the time and location I am shooting. I then come home, enter everything into JB Ballistics and adjust the BC input of the bullet until the solver gives me the same velocity at the target that my Shotmarker gave me. That is the BC value entered for each shot above. I then average those values to get my average BC.

It works very well. I was talking with Brayn Litz when he first came out with his fancy radar trailer to give custom BC curves on the road. That's what gave me the idea. It works very well.

I used to shoot a lot of LR tactical at different locations and was able to get a high percentage of first-round impacts based on these BCs. If I miss on the first round inside of 2,000 yards its rarely if ever due to vertical. In that game, since you only get one or two shots at a target, first-round impacts are worth gold.

Estimating BC by drops is close and a LOT easier. I just enjoy the challenge and testing my trimming/pointing to see where the point of optimal improvement is.
 

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