Berger 195's Freebore

[falconpilot]

What freebore are you guys using that have tested and are shooting the 195's?

 

[ShootDots]

What freebore are you guys using that have tested and are shooting the 195's?

I had a Shehane built with a "straight" 8 twist in anticipation of the 195's. I don't have any yet. However, I had my 'smith open my throat up to accept the 180 Lapua Scenars which have an inordinately long bearing surface. I don't believe even the 195's have THAT long of a bearing surface, but it should be relatively close. So I opened up my throat to .300 freebore. I think it will work great. But as I stated, I don't have the bullets yet>>>>they are supposed to be at the vendor on Sept 28th. I can't wait. Additionally, I will initially be running H1000 powder.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have throated a couple for the 195, .300 is about right in a 284.

 

[Kyle Schultz]

What freebore are you guys using that have tested and are shooting the 195's?

I've seen this question addressed in various ways but let me share my math with you. I'm going to reference my comments to the 180 hybrid.

Using a Hornady bullet comparator, I measured bullet base to ogive for the 195 at 0.878" and for the 180 hyb at 0.797".

Based on Berger's bullet diagrams, including the recently updated 195 diagram which shows an OAL of 1.648", I calculate bullet base to bottom of bearing surface as 0.250" for the 195 and 0.220" for the 180.

Therefore by difference, the distance from the bullet ogive to the bottom bearing surface for the 195 is 0.628" and is 0.577" for the 180. That's a difference of 0.051". So I would conclude that if the current free bore in the chamber you're using for the 180 hybrid is EXACTLY where you want it, that is, the bullet is sitting in the case EXACTLY where you want it in relation to the case neck-shoulder junction, then you would need to extend the free bore out an additional 0.051" in order to maintain that same relative position.

I know Danny Biggs indicated that he extended his free bore out 0.039". Elsewhere, another shooter reported bullet base to ogive measurements for the 195 at 0.728" and for the 180 hybrid at 0.668". That's a difference of 0.060". I can't explain the differences in measurements but wonder if perhaps different comparators give slightly different measurements.

Best bet is to measure both bullets with the tools you normally use and determine the relative differences for yourself. I think the trick is to find a free bore that works fine with either bullet. In my situation, I'm using a 7-300WSM as the engine. My reamer is spec'd for a 0.265" free bore and I'm very comfortable that's a good free bore for either bullet.

Good luck!

 

[falconpilot]

Thanks for info guys...I'm wanting a freebore that will work with either bullet, so I think I'm going to settle at .265 like you Kyle. I'm currently running a .224 with my hybrids and really happy with it. I just don't want to throat one out so far for the 195's, which may or may not shoot, and may or may not be available. I've got 500 of them, but who knows when more will be available, or if they will even shoot.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The idea of throating a rifle out for accuracy purposes is to get the pressure ring to stay in the sized part of the neck. This is a situation where going half way doesnt do you any good. Unfortunately the difference between the 180 and 195 hybrids is too much that the same throat will work for both. IMO go for one or the other. From the feedback I am getting I dont think you will have a problem with the 195.

 

[Kyle Schultz]

I appreciate the discussion and I'm very much interested in learning from it.

Attached is an Excel file where I looked at the dimensions. Again, in my case I'm working with a 7-300WSM case.

My cases are currently trimmed to 2.091". Distance from base of cartridge to the shoulder-neck junction is 1.821 based on case diagram. That leaves a neck length of 0.270".

Using the Hornady OAL gauge and a fired/resized case, I found the lands at 2.547" with the 180 hyb and at 2.540" with the 195 EOL. Now I guess theoretically, the distance should be the same since the bore diameter is fixed. But I attributed the difference to measurement tolerance and to the possibility that different bullet profiles may engage the lands slightly differently. Regardless, 0.007" is a petty small distance.

That puts the bottom of the bearing surface at 1.969" for the 180 and at 1.912" for the 195. But that's with the bullets touching the lands. What do the numbers look like if I jump or jam.

So the next two sections look at the numbers if I jam 0.010", what I call my minimum "jump", to a case where I jump as much as 0.030". Since the max jump case represents the situation where the case is seated the deepest in the case, let's look at those numbers first.

For the 180 hybrid, the bottom of the bearing surface is sitting 0.118" above the shoulder-neck junction and I have 56% of the neck filled. For the 195, since it's a longer bullet, the base of the bearing surface is 0.061" above the shoulder-neck junction and the neck is 77% filled.

Now I have no practical experience to know if 0.061" is far enough away to be "in the clear". Keep in mind this reamer was spec'd 3 years ago when the 195 EOL was a twinkle in Bryan's eye. But I did have in mind a minimum "clearance" of 0.050".

If I were to jam the bullet, I wanted to check if I had enough neck to adequately "hold" the bullet. For the 180 hybrid, for a 0.010" jam, 41% of the neck would be filled. Again, I have no real world experience to know whether that's enough. Off the top of my head, I would have guessed 33% was the practical minimum.

Keep in mind these are calculations based on an actual chamber cut with a reamer spec'd for a 0.265" free bore. I have no idea if the reamer was ground accurately. And I had about 450 rounds through the barrel when I took these measurements.

I'm sharing all this with the community in the spirit of learning. Any and all comments are welcomed.

 

[falconpilot]

Great info!!

As far as pressure rings and neck sizing...I understand the theory of keeping the pressure ring into the sized area..that being said...please explain how SO, SO many 284's are shooting so dang good with a .188 freeborn using the 180 hybrids..cause my .224 freeborn is barely there..if this theory is correct, then a lot of guns I've seen shoot lights out, shouldn't be shooting at all..

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Well, its not a theory. It mainly depends on the pressure ring. If its small or not there, then it wont matter. If you have a decent pressure ring it will matter. And that will vary lot to lot. Also, if the load your shooting likes very light neck tension, then it wont matter either. As good as F Open rigs shoot, its really hard to tell exactly how well they are shooting when you are shooting for score and have to wait for the pits. This stuff matters when your trying to shoot really small. It just depends on the level of accuracy you need.

 

[Swamplife]

The difference in the 195 & 180 hybrid can vary from lot to lot. I've seen numbers from .050-.067 when measuring different lots. Most vary from .060-.067. Whatever freebore you like in a particular cartridge for the 180's, I'd add .060-.070.


Darren

 

[bsumoba]

Alex (zfastmalibu) made mine around .290. I think this is a good FB and keeps the bullet well above the donut region.

Still working up loads in my 9 twist to 8.25 twist. My gun did not seem to like H4831SC, so I'll be trying H4350 as well. I am shooting it in a 284 Shehane. About 50 rounds down the barrel and the best I got was just shy of 1/2" 4-shot groups @ 100 yards .

I am working up in 1/2 gr increments so I might be a little wide on the increments. Going to reduce it to 0.3 gr and work the 2700-2750 velocity range.

I am hoping H4350 will give me an "A-HA" moment.

As a sidenote, Alex did me up another 9 twist barrel for the 180s...with my "match" load in my current rifle, I sighted the scope in and after, shot a 5-shot group. Shots 5-9 in the barrel went into a horizontally strung (most likely me) ragged hole.

I am curious what results people are getting from their testing of the 195s.

 

[falconpilot]

.290 is what I've settled on as well..placing a call to Kiff in a few minutes to get reamer headed this way. Just curious as to where you guys are getting these bullets to shoot...in or out of lands..I'm chambering up a 1:8 Kreiger 4 grove for it..

 

[rpierce]

Jim: I would suggest skipping PTG and go with JGS when ordering up a reamer. My experience and quite a few others recently is you most likely will not get what you order from PTG. I compared the freebore length on a PTG reamer and a two identical JGS reamers, all 6.5x47 reamers. The freebore lengths were supposed to only be .007 different between the jgs and the ptg. The two JGS were the same but the PTG was .040 shorter than it was supposed to be. The chamber throats lengths were measured with the hornady overall length gauge. Also another quality that JGS has is they are sharpened correctly. PTG is notorious for rings in the chamber. I can run a JGS reamer in a inch on the first past and withdraw it and the chamber looks polished. Chambers are prebored. There was a post on long range hunting about the differences and someone posted a pic of the cutting edge on a PTG and a JGS reamer under a microscope. The ptg looked like a hacksaw blade and the JGS looked superb. Which do you want cutting your throat lol. I will no longer chamber w a ptg reamer even if its a customer supplied one that is brand new.

 

[falconpilot]

Ryan,

Thanks for info...I was visiting with Chris Anderson yesterday...He said to hurry up!

I'll be supplying him with a few of the 195's to see how the Nosler does..

 

[rpierce]

Not a problem. I talked to him today, lol. Im chambering and bedding his 28 nosler on Thursday. I was going to do a ladder test yesterday morning at 1000 with a customers 28 nosler and 195 bergers. There was no wind, .25 minute worth. I got all the way back to shoot and the battery on my target camera was broke, lol. I shot a couple shots of the same charge at the steel target just to make the trip worth while. Looked very promising. Ran to Walmart and got another battery power bank. Gonna give it a go tomorrow morning.

 

[rpierce]

Bsumoba: Try shooting her at farther distances. I don't think she is fully stabilized at 100. She wasn't shooting that great at 100 for me either, .3" was best and .5" was average. I couldn't get camera reception at 1000 this morning so I scooted up to 400 yds so I could see bullet holes through the scope. I did the ladder test off the bipod. She had a .8 gr spread in powder that was a .95" group. .6 gr spread of it went into .5" and the 88.6 and 88.8 gr went into the same hole. Im guessing shes going about 3150 fps since when I chronoed 88.4 she was 3130 fps. I had 3 extra rounds that were 86.6 gr and decided to see what she would do for a group after the ladder test was over, 1.250" @ 400 off the bipod. 86 gr had a small node, 87 gr didn't shoot that great, and 88.0-88.8 shot under an inch. The whole ladder test consisted of 86.6-89 gr of powder. 13 shot test measured 3.2" off the bipod. This is in a 28 nosler hunting rifle I built for a guy. Actually one of a dozen in the works right now. Gonna go sight in his scope for it and get the G7 rangefinder tuned for his gun so he can take it elk hunting next week. The components were stiller predator, manners eh1, brux 28" fluted rem varm contour, jewell trigger, NF 5.5-22 nxs and my 4 port muscle brake. Gun is 11 lbs with scope and harris bipod.

 

[rickiesrevenge]

Is that with rl33?

Aaron

 

[rpierce]

Yep its re33. You probably noticed that its over book max for even 175s but there c.o.a.l for that combo is 3.340 whereas my c.o.a.l is 3.73 to the lands. That's a huge difference that dramatically reduces pressure.



Ryan Pierce
Piercision Rifles
www.piercisionrifles.com

 

[Dave L Kiff]

The reamers i have been grinding for the seated dummy rounds that have been coming in to me with the 195s have been very close to what Steve Blair had noted a long while back . Depending on the parent case the Freebores to touch with the parallel section of the bullet even with the theoretical junction of neck and shoulder junction range from .230 out and if you put into consideration a lot of folks are just in front of the donuts and add there interpretation of needed jump,well the reamer prints very from .230 out to .290 . I looked at several that I have going through the shop to check a few minuets ago after Jim placed his order for .270 freebore and I would say for his case a .270 is right on the money . All the EOL reamers I have going through the shop from the 7 LRM, Ultra Mags, 28 Noslers and others are averaging in the .220 freebore length out . The Boreriders are kicking butt with a first step of .220 and a second step of .750 @ one and a half lead angle . One thing you can bet on, we will be seeing a lot more of the 195's being used with wildcats . Oh and if you ever want to bitch about my products I'm always here to listen . I have made and shipped out thousands of reamers since the early Eighty's with many different freebore lengths and neck diameters to make sure a custom reramer is suited for the shooter and every Shooter is a potential World Record holder or had a hunt of his or her life and I have made many folks happy and continue to do so . I would recommend trying a borerider throat with these 195 Berger and 192 CE bullets as they have shocked me and many of my customers lately, my borerider reamers in a few different calibers have bagged many top wins and 3 World Records this year, ask Lou, Midd and Walt . Well gotta run, i have a lot of reamers and prints to get out before I go home tonight , Thanks Dave Kiff