Berger .17 37 grain vld?
- Thread starter .222 ND
- Start date
SongdogHunter
Gold $$ Contributor
I was one. I have a target when at 100 yards the bullet entered the target sidways
6 twist .17 PPC the rotation spin was too great pushing (475K RPM) for the jacket and they either came apart midway to target or wouldn't stabalize.
Would have to really slow them down to get them to work and that defeated the purpose.
SDH
17VLD
Gold $$ Contributor
It seems to me Bill Davis of Tioga Ent. had a hand in the development of that 37 grain Berger. In my 7 twist Lilja barrel I tested the stability and accuracy all the way from 2400fps up to 3900fps and got very good accuracy and nice round holes in the target. I also had a 6 twist barrel that was a 17VLR and it definitely is too fast of a twist for that bullet, always wondered why Berger suggested it as it was just too much. Since the rebirth of the 20 caliber, and Bergers awesome 55s I dont bother with that 17ppc much any more. To quote others "the juice ain't worth the squeeze" I Do appreciate what Walt Berger did for us by bringing forth so many offerings in 17 and 20 caliber bullets. Walt and Eunice were very wonderful folks and I was very blessed to meet them and thank them for their great contributions to small caliber shooters and shooters in general.
Matt
Matt
17VLD
Gold $$ Contributor
Never did test the Golds in the 7...yet. When I get a chance im gonna make an action wrench for the Stiller and put that barrel on for a bit and will see how they hold up. In my 10 twist 17 ppc the 30 was stable and shot a few tiny groups at 500yards in the Wyoming altitude.
Matt
Matt
.222 ND, I’m not really sure what you are looking for on “the backstory on the Berger 37 Grain VLDs.”
I can tell you what I know from working with them and Walt many years ago and where I think they really shined. I can also shed some light on what kind of ruined a great bullet’s reputation and success story as well.
The birth of the Berger 17 cal 37 gr. VLD was for long-range, low-recoil target shooting. It was designed on paper to put holes in paper at long range, and in this realm they really shined. I still feel that they are easily the most accurate long-range 17-caliber bullets ever made. From 400 to 600 yards, I don’t think they can or will ever be beat.
Your post got me digging around in the back of the shop to see if I still had any of the chariots of choice for my use with them and I located this one. I had a special run of these made at Pac-Nor many years ago. If you chambered these in a Mach IV cartridge at 28 inches in length and ran the bullets at or around their designed 3200 fps range with slow-burning powders, you could drive these bullets into very tiny groups out to 600 yards. They did exactly what they were made and designed for.
(custom run 17 cal 1 in 7 twist Polygonal PacNor Stainless Super Match barrel.)Sadly, at the time of their introduction (yes, this is coming from a guy with a glass house full of broken windows), the small-caliber world was on fire with guys hot-rodding the snot out of the small calibers—most for use in varmint-type situations. This world was not suited for what the 37 gr. VLDs were designed for. As a matter of fact, you probably couldn’t put many more bad attributes together for that arena (long bearing surface, long center of gravity, long BT base, low-drag VLD tips).
The long bearing surface and small diameter made them ideal for core melt-outs if you pushed them much past 3200 fps. The VLD design (like in many larger bullets) kept them from truly stabilizing before the 200-yard mark. The long boat tail made them very susceptible to muzzle-blast wash if used with short barrels and fast powders. Their very aerodynamic design made them pinhole straight through targets.
You could place an air-filled water balloon at 500 yards and fire five rounds through the balloon before all of the air escaped. It would leave a deflated balloon and five holes in the paper behind it in a small group. Sadly, this is also how they performed on varmints as well. You could watch them shoot clear through a prairie dog, and it often wouldn’t even budge. About 30 seconds to a minute later, they would fall over dead as a wedge—not quite what most were looking for in a varmint round.
Back in those days, everything Walt was designing and what we were selling was tailored to competition target shooting. The problem was that the biggest market at the time for the 17s was high-speed, flat-shooting, explosive rounds.
Not sure if this answers your question though but wish you the best of luck on your upcoming shoots.
Carl C.
Extreme Accuracy
www.14caliber.com
Great piece of history. Thank you for sharing, Carl!
Walt made the 37 gr. for target shooting as well as for varmints at long range with 17 centerfires. He also worked with Todd Kindler on what was wanted or needed.
I had a rifle built just for the 37 gr. VLD and shoot it side by side with my 22-250 ackley at 500 yards the 37 gr. only drifted about one inch from the 52 gr. a-max . %2 gr. was going about 400 fps. with 37 only going about 3500-3600 fps. which was dam good. I put about 100 rounds through my rifle no issues and they shot awesome as well no complaints. But then Walt got in his head he needed to use the J-4 jackets on them and also had someone else make the bullets in Cali. The issue with bullets also came up at same time, was it the j-4 jackets or the other company that was making the bullet?? You just can't have anyone run a machine or set it up if they have no clue to what they are doing, anyway they fauked up that deal and they never shot good again even at lower Vel.
Then they have the 30 gr Berger's which was best 17 cal. bullet Berger ever made, but he jumped ship cause sales was more limited. not enough cash for his needs so out they go and then he keeps making the 25 gr. bullet which was a hit and miss in custom rifles even, some work and some didn't.
Problem with J-4 jacket was they was to thin, if you have a little carbon build up and they put a little scratch in bullet then they would go poof.
As for use of a 30 gr. on Predators such as fox and coyotes the bullets slammed them to the ground and killed them. I never had a exit or a runoff they just flat out killed with right cartridge. Real world experience from a hide hunter. Now the only thing Walt be remembered for is for turning his back on 17 cal. shooters.
I had a rifle built just for the 37 gr. VLD and shoot it side by side with my 22-250 ackley at 500 yards the 37 gr. only drifted about one inch from the 52 gr. a-max . %2 gr. was going about 400 fps. with 37 only going about 3500-3600 fps. which was dam good. I put about 100 rounds through my rifle no issues and they shot awesome as well no complaints. But then Walt got in his head he needed to use the J-4 jackets on them and also had someone else make the bullets in Cali. The issue with bullets also came up at same time, was it the j-4 jackets or the other company that was making the bullet?? You just can't have anyone run a machine or set it up if they have no clue to what they are doing, anyway they fauked up that deal and they never shot good again even at lower Vel.
Then they have the 30 gr Berger's which was best 17 cal. bullet Berger ever made, but he jumped ship cause sales was more limited. not enough cash for his needs so out they go and then he keeps making the 25 gr. bullet which was a hit and miss in custom rifles even, some work and some didn't.
Problem with J-4 jacket was they was to thin, if you have a little carbon build up and they put a little scratch in bullet then they would go poof.
As for use of a 30 gr. on Predators such as fox and coyotes the bullets slammed them to the ground and killed them. I never had a exit or a runoff they just flat out killed with right cartridge. Real world experience from a hide hunter. Now the only thing Walt be remembered for is for turning his back on 17 cal. shooters.
I can assure you whole heartedly that Walt did NOT make the 17 cal 37 Gr. VLD (or any other VLD bullet for that matter for varmint shooting or hunting). I would also say the J4 jackets that we were using were not an issue from any of my bullet making or any of my customers that I supplied with both J4 jackets and Berger bullets to. I still have a very large supply of J4 jackets from that time frame that are now further reduced to 14 caliber and ran at over 500,000 RPMs’ and over 5000 fps. The jackets are still holding up well at even these extreme conditions. If you have a lot number of the J4 jackets you’re having troubles with or lot number of 37 gr VLD’s that you are having troubles with please let me know. I would really like to hear specifics on them to research the problem.
As for Walt’s bullets and hunting, I spent a lot of time in some pretty heated discussions with Walt about using his bullets for hunting purposes. We had pioneered using Berger VLD bullets for hunting. He was VERY against it. I had started a company (Extreme Accuracy) to become his first dealer on the West Coast (the other two were on the East Coast). We were all supplying bullets to competition and target shooters around the world soon after.
My shooting life, however, started as a hunter, and it was in my blood. Not using such a precision bullet for hunting at times was out of the question.
Walt was adamant that his bullets were not built for hunting and that they should not be used for it. Walt grew up a hunter as well and knew that his J4 jackets were way too thin to provide adequate weight retention in many situations. He was right, but I told him that in many situations, the light-jacketed bullets excelled under certain circumstances.
I told him that from 600 yards out, for instance, as the bullet speed slowed, the Berger VLDs were doing a great job and were far outperforming heavier-jacketed bullets. I had been taking caribou, mule deer, blacktail, elk, bear, and the like out to 1,200 yards with one-shot drop results. He was far less than amused. I got quite a lecture on more than one occasion about not selling his bullets for the purpose of hunting.
With the help of Carla (who was key in running Berger Bullets at the time), Walt continued to supply us with bullets for all of our competition shooters as long as I didn’t market them as hunting bullets and kept the hunting aspect to myself.
After several years of sending him successful hunting report after report—and even setting up two professional coyote hunters with his bullets to use—he finally admitted they had their place in the hunting world. Over 700 dead coyotes a year couldn’t be wrong.
It wasn’t long after that his Grandson in law, Eric Stecker, started working for him, and Eric quickly saw the potential of the Berger bullets for certain hunting situations.
On a side note, you should have seen Walt’s face when I told him I had his bullets riding in the nose cone of missiles to intercept and shoot down other missiles. The look of shock, followed by head-shaking and laughter, will be etched in my memory forever.
I sure miss him.
Carl C.
Extreme Accuracy
www.14caliber.com
As for Walt’s bullets and hunting, I spent a lot of time in some pretty heated discussions with Walt about using his bullets for hunting purposes. We had pioneered using Berger VLD bullets for hunting. He was VERY against it. I had started a company (Extreme Accuracy) to become his first dealer on the West Coast (the other two were on the East Coast). We were all supplying bullets to competition and target shooters around the world soon after.
My shooting life, however, started as a hunter, and it was in my blood. Not using such a precision bullet for hunting at times was out of the question.
Walt was adamant that his bullets were not built for hunting and that they should not be used for it. Walt grew up a hunter as well and knew that his J4 jackets were way too thin to provide adequate weight retention in many situations. He was right, but I told him that in many situations, the light-jacketed bullets excelled under certain circumstances.
I told him that from 600 yards out, for instance, as the bullet speed slowed, the Berger VLDs were doing a great job and were far outperforming heavier-jacketed bullets. I had been taking caribou, mule deer, blacktail, elk, bear, and the like out to 1,200 yards with one-shot drop results. He was far less than amused. I got quite a lecture on more than one occasion about not selling his bullets for the purpose of hunting.
With the help of Carla (who was key in running Berger Bullets at the time), Walt continued to supply us with bullets for all of our competition shooters as long as I didn’t market them as hunting bullets and kept the hunting aspect to myself.
After several years of sending him successful hunting report after report—and even setting up two professional coyote hunters with his bullets to use—he finally admitted they had their place in the hunting world. Over 700 dead coyotes a year couldn’t be wrong.
It wasn’t long after that his Grandson in law, Eric Stecker, started working for him, and Eric quickly saw the potential of the Berger bullets for certain hunting situations.
On a side note, you should have seen Walt’s face when I told him I had his bullets riding in the nose cone of missiles to intercept and shoot down other missiles. The look of shock, followed by head-shaking and laughter, will be etched in my memory forever.
I sure miss him.
Carl C.
Extreme Accuracy
www.14caliber.com
well, you best take a good look most of his 17 Cal bullets, 20 cal, bullets and 224 cal bullets are used for hunting Predators mostly then you have the P.D. shooters. Not many BR shooters jumped on 17 cal. band wagon.
I started out getting about 3800 fps with with 37 gr. bullets then after about 100-200 rounds down barrel his bullets started to go POOF never made it to 100 yard target. Then they said oh you shooting them too fast so backed down to 3500 fps., was still a hit and miss with them. Then it was oh you got wrong twist for them. It never ended. The J-4 jackets was too thin that was problem, you put a small scratch in one you could bank on it not reaching the target.
As for using them on game well Sierra said same thing about their 52 gr. match, was meant for target shooting only. Lol The 52 Gr. sierra match H.P. has been used on coyotes for long as I could remember with all the hide hunters over 25 years.
The 17 cal. 30 gr. was another great coyote bullet and made 17 cal.s shine and best bullet walt ever made and you could get 4000 fps out of them no issues and still no issue with them today with what remaining stock I have. Walt jumped ship on them as well.
20 cal. 50 & 55 gr. VLD's would of been a great coyote bullet as well but same J-4 jacket B.S., some made it to target, and some just proofed. Once again barrel twist was blamed or we were just pushing them too fast, so once again slowed them down and didn't matter POOF. The Walt Jumped ship again on that project. And I sit with 800.00 worth of useless barrels. LOL The other issue besides jackets was he was jumping around having different people make the bullets and that could have been the problem from start and when problem did start. I don't remember name of company in cali. might have been where rifle primers are made or something like that..
As for 30 gr. 17 cal. yes, it has killed a lot of coyotes and a cripple was very rare, bullet went inside critter and dumped all its energy right there. I had one coyote I skinned out the 30-gr. bullet bored a 17-cal. hole right through the bone.
I started out getting about 3800 fps with with 37 gr. bullets then after about 100-200 rounds down barrel his bullets started to go POOF never made it to 100 yard target. Then they said oh you shooting them too fast so backed down to 3500 fps., was still a hit and miss with them. Then it was oh you got wrong twist for them. It never ended. The J-4 jackets was too thin that was problem, you put a small scratch in one you could bank on it not reaching the target.
As for using them on game well Sierra said same thing about their 52 gr. match, was meant for target shooting only. Lol The 52 Gr. sierra match H.P. has been used on coyotes for long as I could remember with all the hide hunters over 25 years.
The 17 cal. 30 gr. was another great coyote bullet and made 17 cal.s shine and best bullet walt ever made and you could get 4000 fps out of them no issues and still no issue with them today with what remaining stock I have. Walt jumped ship on them as well.
20 cal. 50 & 55 gr. VLD's would of been a great coyote bullet as well but same J-4 jacket B.S., some made it to target, and some just proofed. Once again barrel twist was blamed or we were just pushing them too fast, so once again slowed them down and didn't matter POOF. The Walt Jumped ship again on that project. And I sit with 800.00 worth of useless barrels. LOL The other issue besides jackets was he was jumping around having different people make the bullets and that could have been the problem from start and when problem did start. I don't remember name of company in cali. might have been where rifle primers are made or something like that..
As for 30 gr. 17 cal. yes, it has killed a lot of coyotes and a cripple was very rare, bullet went inside critter and dumped all its energy right there. I had one coyote I skinned out the 30-gr. bullet bored a 17-cal. hole right through the bone.
As for what 37 gr. bullets I had left, they got sold and barrel pulled and put in a corner in basement. My 20x47 Lapua which was set up for 50-55 gr. 20 cal. VLDs is now at gunsmith's getting a 22-250 ackley barrel put on it to shoot 52 gr. Hornady ELDS. That 20 cal. barrel will also go sit in corner no longer can use it.
If availability is the only problem, Grafs has the 20 cal 55gn bullets. They have Berger do special runs for them and keep them in stock pretty much all the time:
BERGER 20(.204) 55gr HPBT BULLET (VARMINT) 100/bx - Graf & Sons
Exclusive to Grafs! After noticing an interest, Grafs contacted Berger for a special run of these varmint bullets. Get them while you can! Berger Long Range BT Varmint Bullets feature Match Grade quality construction and have a large hollow point that produces rapid expansion when used for...
www.grafs.com
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