Bench shooting need some help

[Blackcat]

This is driving me crazy last few days.
I was using a Caldwell leadsled and shooting about 3 moa at 100 yards.
I wanted to tighten that up so I researched proper bench techniques.
To sum up what I read. Lose the sled, use heavy sandbags. Sit parallel to the rifle cross the support arm under the stock near the butt of the rifle and rest your head on the stock to get a solid cheek weld. Keep the rifle secure to the shoulder.

I watched some youtube videos and pretty much copied what I saw. Now my groups have opened by 10 inches.

I havent seen a lot of info on basic body position and I believe thats a nog part of the problem.
First... Where exactly should the butt of the rifle sit on the body ?
Ive always figured it sits on the meaty part of the chest where the pectoral muscle almost meets the shoulder but that puts me in an odd position. Mine seems to sit better on my actual shoulder otherwise im just about eating scope.

Should I be hunched over the rifle or sitting pretty much upright sort of like a standing shot but seated ?

Should I be completely relaxed and let the rifle do its thing. Or should I have a death grip keeping it tight to the body to prevent it from jumping around ?

How far from the scope should the eye be ? I would say mines set up so that I get the best view at 6 inches from the scope.

Any other thoughts would help too thanks !

Savage 116 .308 with Federal 180 grain

 

[Immike]

Let it set natural and comfortable. Don't lay on the rifle either. You indicated some preference to being upright so you are already gaining. Try some different ammo also.

 

[jonbearman]

Go on youtube and look up rifle shooting and benchrest shooting and pay attention to what they are doing.A death grip is unnatural.

 

[cat64]

Where are you doing your shooting? Hope you can find some experienced bench shooters near your location. It appears you are at this point in the learning curve where merely watching a video or reading an article will not add significant value. These avenues have their merit but I believe you will benefit most by “watching” in person an experienced shooters and allowing yourself to be coached through the "correct" technique. The truth is, like in learning how to play a guitar for instance, if you start the journey with a faulty technique, the unlearning and relearning will be much more painful. The good news is the process is not very complex and with the right guidance (and decent equipment) you will be within MOA performance at 100 yards in a short time. Good luck and keep us posted to your progress

 

[M-61]

"...best view at 6" from the scope"
Seems like a long eye relief. When you say "best picture" do mean a full field of view?
Since you did away with the sled it's you that is taking the recoil and I wonder when you say you feel as if you are 'eating' the scope are you concerned with getting wacked and therefore assuming an uncomfortable and odd position?
I guess the positive in this is that you know the rifle is capable of 3" so in tripling this it is what you are doing, so that narrows the problem.
I should have started with what make/model scope? The 6" seems so wrong to me.
And in my own experience I know when things are not going well, continuing to get slammed by those 180gr loads
does not help. Get yourself comfortable. get the correct eye relief, and don't be afraid to take a break and come back another day.

 

[jonbearman]

Another thing is trigger control. You should start to squeeze once on target ,if the gun is moving stop squeezing till you are on target and squeeze with very gentle pressure and gradually the gun should go off and be a surprise so to speak till you can start to dry fire and get comfortable with trigger control using snap caps so you don't do damage to the firing pin. If you are jerking the trigger then that would explain the bad groups partially. Do you have a pronounced flinch as that is what plagues many shooters and with practice can be alleviated . A good solid front rest with the correct type of sand bag in it will help you get the rifle tracking properly. The rear bag should also be the right height. There are many rests on the market and the hart rest is the standard for a lot of shooters.

 

[CSM19Z5M]

Honestly, I would find someone who is an experienced bench-rest shooter and have him review your technique and equipment. I have also found a video camera very useful for learning what you are doing wrong. Sometimes seeing yourself in action is worth a lot of trial and error. Good luck.

 

[22BRGUY]

here's a vid that helped me a lot. Even though it's not benchrest, the principles apply IMHO. Best Wishes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weBuYmnpg38

 

[Immike]

Lots of good guys here with good advice, this is a good forum. I want you to focus on your trigger pull next time you go out. Open your trigger hand and concentrate on pulling it straight back towards the butt plate. Also check all your screws on the rifle after using the lead sled, it is very hard on a rifle. (Scope bases and action)

 

[SS427]

To go from 3 inch groups, which in my opinion is about as bad as a typical Savage can do under the worst of situations, to 10 inch groups tells me something else beside bench manners is at play.

Using a lead sled forces the rifle and scope to absorb a lot of the recoil. Have you tried a different scope? With 180 grain bullets even a .308 has considerable recoil. My first guess would be the lead sled has either caused your mounts to come loose or it damaged the scope.

 

[artbosco]

For the ultimate in BR technique watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKswldMjS2E This gentleman was a world record setter back in the mid 80s with a 10-shot group at 200 yards at Kelbly's range in Ohio. Anything short of this may introduce expanding groups. How many windflags are you using?

 

[Eddie Harren]

Uhhh, I wouldn't try shooting your Savage 116 in 308 with 180 Gr. bullets, using the method in that video. That's a 13.5 Lb rifle in 6PPC, and I'll bet it recoils less and rides the bags better than your Savage.

 

[Blackcat]

Wow thanks thats a lot of good info!
The scope is a vortex pst with weaver 20 moa rail and weaver low profile rings.
Doesnt seem to me anythings been nocked loose. It feels more like trying to position myself the way bench is described feels really unnatural. Probably just a practice thing. I have some flinch from my .300 win mag days but thats fading fast. Thats why I went to .308. My eye distance from the scope is more to do with where I get the full clear image. If I move forward or back the image vanishes. Im not sure what its called but it looks like a dark circle eclipsing the image. I know theres a term for it though.
No wind... For testing sake I chose days with no wind at all. No flags either the length of the range has waist tall grain growing so I watch that for wind. It could be the 180 grain... The other change I made was from 150 to 180 grain at the same time as I adopted the new techniques.

 

[BoydAllen]

Set the Lead Sled aside for the moment, and borrow a decent front rest and rear bag. If your rifle has a lot of kick, put a long narrow sand bag between the butt and your shoulder when you shoot at the bench, to prevent picking up a flinch. Make sure that you wear very good ear protection that does not touch the comb of your stock when you are in shooting position. This may require a combination of high DB foam plugs and flat shotgun muffs. If you are using a pad between the rifle and your shoulder, don't worry if you are too far away from the scope to see the full field of view. You don't need it all to shoot targets. Position your rear bag as near to the edge of the bench, on the side that you are sitting on, as you can, and still have it not hang off of the flat surface. Put it far enough forward that when you have your non trigger hand on the rear bag, that your trigger hand arm is supported by the bench, and your other arm is supported by the wider, front part of the bench. Position your front rest so that your rifle is pointed at the center of the target, and make sure the CL of it and your rear bag are on the same line with your barrel. Do not, repeat, do not try to shoot a sporter or tactical stocked rifle, of ordinary weight, like a bench rifle. Make sure that what you sit on is tall enough so that your shoulder is the same height as the top of the butt, with the rifle set up to shoot. Have your upper body positioned so that your shouders are at about a 45 degree angle to the CL of the barrel. Lean forward to bring your eye in line with the scope, Make sure that you are far enough away from it that you will not have the rear of the scope hit your face as the rifle recoils. Put you feet on the ground. Relax, and try to get as comfortable as you can. Have the rifle in contact with your shoulder. Do not put and down force on it with your cheek or trigger hand, but you may want to pull it into your shoulder some with the second and third fingers of your trigger hand, which should be positioned so that you are pulling the trigger straight back, making contact about half way between the tip of your index finger, and the first joint. Shooting from the bench, you should never attempt to pull the trigger as you move by the desired point of aim. Get steady, and slowly increase pressure on the trigger until the rifle discharges. No attempt should be made to have the rifle go off at a particular instant, It should surprise you a bit when it fires. When it does, pretend you are a corpse, or some other inanimate object and do not move, flinch or move any part of your body until the rifle is fully at rest, and for a half second more. This is called follow through, and is very very important. To aim grasp the rear bag ears between your thumb and first two fingers, with your elbow and arm on the bench in a comfortable position. Before you do this, you should have the bags and rest adjusted so that your cross hairs are roughly centered on your target, and about a half inch high on your desired point of aim. Then, while maintaining a consistent hold on the rifle, squeeze the rear bag to do your final adjustment of aim. When you are there, take a quick glance at the wind flag(s) with your off eye (maintaining position) and start your trigger squeeze. One final thought, dry fire practice is very important to your finding a workable position, and developing consistency in the way that you hold the rifle, aim it, and sqeeze the trigger. I am not talking once or twice, but lots of reps until you are satisfied that you are doing everything perfect every time. If you do not take the time to refine the details of how you shoot, your will be practicing how to do it incorrectly, and become very good at that. This has the additional disadvantage of making doing it properly feel strange and awkward until you get used to dong it right.

 

[M-61]

The distance is called 'eye relief'.
The above posts have included the one item I forgot. Using that sled does indeed put some strain on the rifle. I don't think you can tell by looking if the rail or rings are secure and I would absolutely check the rail and rings. If it means pulling the scope to check the rail mount there really isn't much lost as you are dealing with a 10" group at 100yards right now.
Vortex PST dos not tell me enough but a quick look showed most of their scopes have a 4" eye relief.
I am not so sure about the flinch fading. That 300 WM would will make an impression.
Check the scope and mounts. Why did you go from 150 to 180?
I think you have assumed a position that is uncomfortable and shooting from that sled may have led to some bad habits.
This will all come together with a bit of patience. The above posts are full of good info. As "OTTER" said...'have you tried another scope?' It's possible yours is damaged. To go from 3" to 10" groups....well either the scope is flopping around, the scope is damaged, or you have developed a flinch which you do not realize.
Keep us posted as you move forward.

 

[dryhumor]

The next time you are at the bench, get set up in position and ready to fire with the rifle unloaded. Do everything as you would normally do in firing. Dry fire the rifle. Evaluate the moment the trigger breaks.

In that moment did the sight picture move? Did the rifle move? Did you feel the need to rush the shot/pull? Where was the crosshair? Where was your heartbeat? Were you inhaling or exhaling?

In that moment, that lasts just milliseconds, the trigger lets the firing pin move forward. When all is well, the shot goes where aimed. When not, it doesn't.

If you practice by dry firing, and learn to evaluate the "moment" you can gain consistency and awareness. I generally know when the trigger breaks before the rifle fires if I've pulled a shot. Don't be afraid to let off of the trigger and regain control if you feel you may be rushing.

I've seen terrible flinching through the years, I don't envy you trying to work it out. One thing that may help- have someone load your rifle without you looking. Have them hand it to you either loaded or not and you fire it as if it was. If you are flinching you'll know it.

 

[SS427]

What kind of groups were you able to shoot with the 300 WM? Do you have another gun, either your own or someone else's, you could try? If you can shoot a decent group with another gun, it isn't bench manners.

I have a terrible flinch when I shoot my .30-06 more than a few times. I use a folded up towel to reduce the kick...hell at times I even don't pull the trigger because I have flinched at the thought of pulling the trigger. I can still pull off groups in the 1 1/2 to 3/4 inch range with it. 10 inch groups...something is wrong other than you.

 

[22BRGUY]

For the ultimate in BR technique watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKswldMjS2E This gentleman was a world record setter back in the mid 80s with a 10-shot group at 200 yards at Kelbly's range in Ohio. Anything short of this may introduce expanding groups. How many windflags are you using?

I really especially liked what he had to say.

 

[BoydAllen]

I disagree with the idea that shooting free recoil is always the best approach to shooting small groups. The use of the technique is entirely dependent on the suitability of the entire shooting system. starting with the bench, and including little, but important things like the trigger pull weight. The weight of the rifle in relation to its recoil, the design of the stock, the bag setup, the rifle balance, and the friction between rifle and bags all have to be right for this to work, and I would say that 99% of the shooters that try this technique, are doing so with equipment that would yield better results holding their rifles. I am personally acquainted with two shooters very near the top of the Benchrest Hall of Fame, who hold their rifles. Overall, I see a lot of shooters that are doing what has been described as the definition of insanity, doing the same experiment over and over, and expecting different results. If what you are doing is not working, try something different. I have experimented with my best bench rifle, and have been able to shoot five shot groups (under perfect conditions) that measured under .2, shouldering and holding the rifle, but like anything else, there are rules as to how this is done. One cannot grab a rifle any old way.

 

[Eddie Harren]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyr_KABHBg4

I think this old man, in this video, is "pretty close to the top of the BR HOF", and it looks forever more like he is shooting free recoil.