Before temp stable powders

[Wolfdog91]

So big thank you for all the responses on my last thread about ball powders learned a lot !
Another question. For y'all who've been around a while , what where y'all doing before super temp stable powders where a thing .
In here in Mississippi and it's can go from 20-80 in a week so looking for some knowledge in the subject since it's not the easiest thing to find good temp stable powders right now and I'd like to try play around with what I can get.
Thanks in advance!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

So big thank you for all the responses on my last thread about ball powders learned a lot !
Another question. For y'all who've been around a while , what where y'all doing before super temp stable powders where a thing .
In here in Mississippi and it's can go from 20-80 in a week so looking for some knowledge in the subject since it's not the easiest thing to find good temp stable powders right now and I'd like to try play around with what I can get.
Thanks in advance!

I think this is where tuners shine, but tuner or not, learn to recognize tune and how to keep up with it even during the same day.
Since going to tuners, I don't even pay much attention to temp stability anymore. I just nudge the tuner based on group shapes. Just having a weight at the muzzle slightly widens to node width. From there, either move the tuner or adjust the load to keep up with conditions.
My best loads haven't always been the most temp stable. I think it's up to me to learn powder characteristics and interpret how that shows up on target.

 

[K22]

I've been around for a while.  (About 50 years of shooting, hunting, and reloading.) The following applies to rifles only.

In the early days I shot a lot of IMR stick Powders, namely, IMR 4895, 4064, and 4350. These days, I shoot mostly Hodgdon powers, H 4895 and Varget.

I don't know that it's much different today than it was back then. Since I've hunted year around for as long as I can remember, i.e., varmints in the summer, predator and deer in the fall and winter, I always checked sight in from season to season. Invariably some elevation adjustment is needed. Whether this is due to changes in air density which can affect point of impact or the powder response to temperature change or both, I'm not sure. But does it really matter? I mean, it's just prudent to check the sight in when season change. So, that hasn't changed.

Also, if you shoot enough with the same rifle / load, you will develop knowledge of how that combo responds to temperature changes. Also, the size of your target area needs to be taken into account. There is a lot less margin for error with varmints and predator versus deer. Same for a target shooter shooting for the 10 / X ring.

Where I've seen the most significant variation is with ball powders. But I haven't used them for a long time.

 

[mikeinct]

What He Said. K22 above.

 

[Gargoyle]

They didn't have the internet to put a bunch of theoretical ideas in their heads to get wrapped around the axle about.

 

[357Mag]

So big thank you for all the responses on my last thread about ball powders learned a lot !
Another question. For y'all who've been around a while , what where y'all doing before super temp stable powders where a thing .
In here in Mississippi and it's can go from 20-80 in a week so looking for some knowledge in the subject since it's not the easiest thing to find good temp stable powders right now and I'd like to try play around with what I can get.
Thanks in advance!

Wolfdog -

Howdy, again !

I guess what I was doing starting out in the mid-70's w/ reloading, is pretty much the same stuff I'm doing today. I say this because I have not yet come up w/ my first load using a powder touted to be " temp stable ".... for use in my " DEEP 6 " wildcat, or for use in another rifle.

I'm doing a 3-way runoff between RL-23, RL-25; and RL-26 these days. But, none of these 3 has pulled ahead ( yet ) of the others. I was formerly using RL-22, but found out it " burns " comparatively hot; and decided to switch over to a new ( and also ) " temp stable " powder. So.... until I do select one of those powders.... I will not as yet have graduated to use of a temp stable powder for my " go to " load. It will come, I'm just not there yet.

Funny about some of the ball powder comments I read, in your previous post responses.
The majority of my most accurate loads in a variety of revolvers and bolt action rifles
were / are loads that utilized ball powders ( my loads / my guns ).
WW296 in .357Magnums ( revolvers and a carbine ), WW296 again ....in my 22" barrel
" .358 AutoMag " wildcat ( .357 necked-up to .358" calibre ), W760 in my .22-35 Remington wildcat w/ a 24" barrel, H380 in a 22" M-77 .250-3000 .

I myself had not previously read that " ball " powders were/are finicky to find a load for, or are notoriously temp sensitive; or that they might be hard to " tune ". This has not been my experience. I do distinctly recall that my .22-35 Remington field / accuracy load was 41.2gr WW760 and FED Large Magnum Rifle Match under a Hornady 55SX. This was my anti-groundhog round par excellence. I mention this because I killed a groundhog @ 425 yd, using a random round I pulled from my 20rnd ready-use MTM case.... after it had sat in my car day in / day out for over 4yr. This was in NE Indiana, so the ambient temp cycling those cartridges were exposed to was exacerbated by them having been stored inside my car as summer time temp's made inside car temp's soar. I did not make any scope adjustments or " hold " changes in advance of squeezing that shot off. Worked as advertised ! I DK what more one might ask of a powder, that was already proven to provide accurate and lethal rounds for the desired application ?

My stick powder experiences were initially use of IMR4064 in .22-250, but the individual kernels were a _ _ _ _ to cut w/ my guillotine-style Belding & Mull powder measure. That powder experience gave impetus to my conversion to a bench-rest grade Lyman powder measure w/ a Culver insert, and the use of WW760.... which proved to give me far more accurate loads.

I did use IMR3031 in my M-336 .35 Remington, but that rifle was used mostly just for plinking, and the occasional unlucky groundhog; or deer requiring a mercifully dispatch after being hit on the nearby highway. Here again...... 3031 is not a powder said to be temp insensitive.

I fairly soon will be doing more .35 Remington accuracy work, using a customized CVA
" Hunter " .35 Remington. For those loads, I will be using H4198, which shot so we'll in my newer M-336 XLR .35 Rem. THAT might end up being the first temp-stable powder I use?

Film @ 11:00......


WIth regards,
357Mag

 

[Gargoyle]

I did use IMR3031 in my M-336 .35 Remington, but that rifle was used mostly just for plinking, and the occasional unlucky groundhog; or deer requiring a mercifully dispatch after being hit on the nearby highway. Here again...... 3031 is not a powder said to be temp insensitive.

I am surprisingly finding IMR3031 to yield very low SDs in a few cartridges in different guns. (7mm-08, 308, and 35 Rem) I swear its 4fps SD in each of my best IMR3031 recipes for each. Loads are usually 2.5-3gr lower than Varget. Velocity has been great too. A 30 degree swing day showed no temp sensitivity at all.

fairly soon will be doing more .35 Remington accuracy work, using a customized CVA
" Hunter " .35 Remington. For those loads, I will be using H4198, which shot so we'll in my newer M-336 XLR .35 Rem. THAT might end up being the first temp-stable powder I use?

AA2520 is my powder for Model 8 35 Rem load with 200gr Horn RN. IMR3031 is a champ with the 140gr Hammer shock hammer. The best velocity obtained with 140 SH is IMR END 4166. It doesn't cycle quite as consistent as IMR3031 does so the IMR3031 is my choice with that lighter bullet. You with that single shot CVA, or non semi-auto, can certainly open the door even more. I would say H4198 is too fast for 35 Rem. Old Red can IMR 3031 or AA2520 I think would be stellar! Let me know!

OP - Sorry for derail...

 

[Gargoyle]

I did an experiment for a college science class back in 2002. I loaded 308 WIN 165gr Interlocks with Varget. I shot over a chronograph from 90 F down to 20 F. over a period of 1-2 months. I kept my conclusion notes in my lifetime excel spreadsheet. Here is what they say about Varget back then:

Ambient temperature alone changes FPS by .8 FPS per degree

Matching case temp to ambient temperature results in 3 FPS per degree

I saw a substantial difference in velocity when the round was matched to ambient temp. So, rounds loaded in a gun for hours in the 20 F. cold will shoot lower velocities than if you were truck hunting and the cab was 75 F. and the ambient temp was 20 F.

I tested the ball AA2520 against Varget and remember getting 100fps swings compared to Vargets 25fps changes. I've fired multiple Hodgdon "Extreme Powders" at up to 110 F. temps in a few guns and it seems the Extreme powders kept the pressures from spiking in the heat. (110 F chrono velocities only 15fps more than 75 F. velocities) That's great in my book! However, the Extreme powders did show the velocity loss as I described above going down to cold temps. I only tested from Hot temps down to Cold temp ladder and not the other way for that test. It came later I discovered the hotter the temp gets the less velocity was changing with Varget, H4895, & H4350. Shooting 308 WIN, 270 WSM, 300 WSM.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I did an experiment for a college science class back in 2002. I loaded 308 WIN 165gr Interlocks with Varget. I shot over a chronograph from 90 F down to 20 F. over a period of 1-2 months. I kept my conclusion notes in my lifetime excel spreadsheet. Here is what they say about Varget back then:

Ambient temperature alone changes FPS by .8 FPS per degree

Matching case temp to ambient temperature results in 3 FPS per degree

I saw a substantial difference in velocity when the round was matched to ambient temp. So, rounds loaded in a gun for hours in the 20 F. cold will shoot lower velocities than if you were truck hunting and the cab was 75 F. and the ambient temp was 20 F.

I tested the ball AA2520 against Varget and remember getting 100fps swings compared to Vargets 25fps changes. I've fired multiple Hodgdon "Extreme Powders" at up to 110 F. temps in a few guns and it seems the Extreme powders kept the pressures from spiking in the heat. (110 F chrono velocities only 15fps more than 75 F. velocities) That's great in my book! However, the Extreme powders did show the velocity loss as I described above going down to cold temps. I only tested from Hot temps down to Cold temp ladder and not the other way for that test. It came later I discovered the hotter the temp gets the less velocity was changing with Varget, H4895, & H4350. Shooting 308 WIN, 270 WSM, 300 WSM.

I'd like to hear more details to your test and some more clarification. So .8 fps per degree if the ammo was x amount warmer or cooler than x amount ambient.
And if the ammo was the same as x ambient, the 3fps per degree? Am I following that right so far?
But then you found the temp change to velocity change to not be linear?

Again, am I reading it correctly?
I know it's been a while, just trying to get my head wrapped around your post. My biggest question I think is how did ambient temp have much or any effect on ammo that not not at ambient?
Thanks in advance and forgive me if I totally botched it up.

 

[Gargoyle]

So .8 fps per degree if the ammo was x amount warmer or cooler than x amount ambient.

Yup. I realized my ammo was warmer than the colder temps. Probably hovering around 75 F ammo temp. I would make the rounds in the house, come outside and shoot. So, just the air/ambient temp drop resulted in the .8fps per degree.

And if the ammo was the same as x ambient, the 3fps per degree? Am I following that right so far?

Yes you are tracking

But then you found the temp change to velocity change to not be linear?

That is correct! When going from colder to hotter temps!

My biggest question I think is how did ambient temp have much or any effect on ammo that not not at ambient?
Thanks in advance and forgive me if I totally botched it up.

You are reading what I typed exactly how I was trying to explain. See, the air density was slowing the bullets and the temperature was affecting the powder burn. So, 20 F day and powder inside case matching 20 F. made bigger difference in velocity. Powder burning cooler. That is my hypothesis!

So the claims of temperature insensitivity in the Extreme Line are true to a point they save your butt in extremely hot temps, but do lose velocity as it gets colder. They also do much better than ball powder. With ball powder I think you can get yourself in trouble in 110 F. with a hotter load made at 75 F.

 

[209jones]

Looking back thru the WW760 stuff I've loaded for the 7-08 over the years, the worst was 30fps for 70degF to 0deg F. To a bughole shooter, that'll make a difference, for a hunter inside of 300yds, not an issue. I tossed the stuff I had on H870 in a 7RM unfortunately. Only other use was AA9 and 2230. The AA9, I had to go up 1/10gr in the 0degF temps range, 209gr cast bullet in 32-40Win, breech seated. The 2230, I don't have a vast range of temps on yet, in a 218Bee.

 

[Fuj]

Back in the day it was either Dupont of Hercules. IMR-4064 in the
steel cans was used in all the long guns. Now earlier, my uncle who
shot, used Royal Scott powders made by Nobel.

 

[ncageneral]

Temp swings in MS, you can go to bed and its thunderstorms and tornados, wake up to a frost. Example: Today.

 

[Wolfdog91]

Thanks for all the comments everyone, I have forgotten about this post just takes me a while and a good bit of rereading to come up with appropriate responses

 

[Wolfdog91]

Temp swings in MS, you can go to bed and its thunderstorms and tornados, wake up to a frost. Example: Today.

Man tell me about it. Gon from 40-70 a few times during a 50rd load test work up

 

[std7mag]

Wild daily temp swings in PA also.
Snowing & 26°f one day. Next sunny & 76°f.

I keep reading about everyone worrying about how temp stable "X" powder is vs "Y" powder.

Too much ado about much of nothing to me.
As one person told me, it could make a difference if your doing a 20 shot string as in F-Class.
I could see that.

Otherwise, i keep records. Also known as DOPE (Data On Previous Engagement).
This from shooting when it's 15°f and sleeting through 98°f with what feels like 120% humidity.

I haven't seen any huge disparity between ball or stick powder with regards to temp.
H414 is/was a favorite in my 7mm-08AI.

 

[Bill K]

Right on, we had our loads worked up

They didn't have the internet to put a bunch of theoretical ideas in their heads to get wrapped around the axle about.

that were the most accurate and adjusted and checked our sights/poi and just went shooting and had fun. In other words K.I.S.S.