bedding in front of the recoil lug, and Why?

[LHSmith]

The original smith (note small "s") only claim to being "professional" in that he got paid to do the work. Your initial reaction that things were amiss were correct. The gaps visible at the top of the action tells me he didn't use enough epoxy and there may be voids through-out the bedding job.It may be that he didn't have an end mill (or was too lazy) to "marry" the action into the stock properly.
As far as the bedding under the barrel, you can argue it's merits, but 2-1/2" is too much.
Based on what he let out his door, I would have a REAL Smith evaluate his chamber job.

 

[deadlyswift]

Based on what he let out his door, I would have a REAL Smith evaluate his chamber job.
[/quote]

I have been worried about that myself. I am having Bill Shehane redo the bedding. With his experience in building rifles. I have been thinking of giving him a call back and ask him to check out the chamber. I worry that things aren't to spec, or that the lands don't start at the same spot all the way around the throat. If that makes any sence?
Thanks
Mark

 

[holstil]

You might be able to save time and money to send it to Lenard Baity. Cause more than likely that's who's gonna do it. Bill doesn't build rifles, or very few. At least that's what I found out when I bought my first LV, Dwight Scott built mine for Bill. Not that I mind Dwight Scott (awesome), but I thought I was buying a rifle that Bill made. I thought he was the king after those world records. I figured if he built his he could build mine.
Turns out for the good but expensive. That's the cost of consultation.
Jim

 

[jo191145]

Mark

FWIW Just took a good look at your bedded tang pic. Very telling. Easy to see where your doubts came from, missed that the first time around. I doubt I would have taken it to the range in that condition either.
Good Luck with the fix.

 

[bsoutlaw32]

A good bedding jobs starts out by having a well inletted stock! By the pictures it looks like that might have been the start of the problems. I never bed the tang area of a savage, it will cause many problems! Easy enough to fix just go in and open it up under the tang. I have bedded many with the bedding under the barrel and many without and have seen no difference in accuracy with that countour of barrel.

 

[X Ring Accuracy]

It shoots 1/2" MOA at 400 yards? And you question it? It could look like the moon scape and I could care less if in fact it shoots that well. Way past my ability.

 

[Kenny474]

Keydiver, the 1/2MOA gun is not the gun in question, that is another rifle the smith worked on prior to this most recent rifle.

 

[liseo]

Deadlyswift

I sent you a PM.

Thanks

Liseo

 

[deadlyswift]

It shoots 1/2" MOA at 400 yards? And you question it? It could look like the moon scape and I could care less if in fact it shoots that well. Way past my ability.

As Kenny said the rifle that holds half MOA at 400 is not the gun in the pictures. Some may accept 1/2 MOA as well I accept 1/2 MOA in the rifle that I was speaking of. 1/2 MOA in my book is great for a factory barrel. The piticular rifle in the pic on this thread will be sent to a new home if it doesn't hold 1/4 moa. While 1/2 moa is good it want cut it in Bench Rest now day's. If I don't shoot 1/4 moa is one thing, but the rifle defenitly has to be able to do so. There are many things that have to be in place to shoot 1/4 moa other than just a well built rifle, but with out a well built rifle even if you are doing your part it want happen. As far as how something looks. It's just my taste. If I had a rifle that was shooting in the zero's, and it the looks of the rifle didn't soot me. I would be changing something to make it look as good as it shoots. Agian and as I said above It's just my taste of things. My wife says I have uppity taste buds. My reply was well I chose you as my wife! ;D She smiled and shut up ;D Witch left the score me 1, and her 5k something lol!
Mark

 

[deadlyswift]

Ok guy's here is where I'm at today. I will post a cpl of pic. I did try to crop the pics to show things a little better but they still don't show what I'm really talking about.

So I got up this morning and got at it. I set up some 2x4s and made sure they were perfectly level on my work bench. Then I set the rifle on the 2x4s. The butt of the stock was showing level, as well the forend. I also checked the stock back at the port of the action. The stock was sitting level on the 2x4s. Once I had everything siting level, I laid the level on top of the receiver. It is going up hill as well the barrel is also. Now as to weather or not the bedding in front of the lug will make a difference I don't really know. Like I said to start with I'm a rookie. I can see the point that (Kenny474) made that as long as the bedding made full contact then it want have a negiative affect on the barrel. I guess it's like (clowdis) said it's personal taste. My personal taste I guess happens to be no bedding infront of the lug. The bedding in the front of the lug at this point isn't my main concern any more. At this point and I was taking a much closer look at things, I was very concerned about the action and barrel not sitting parallel in the stock.

So here is what I done. Knowing that I only live about 1 1/2 hrs drive from Bill Shehane, and I already had plans to send the stock back to him to be clear coated anyway I gave him a call. I wanted him to see the whole rifle without telling him what I was seeing. Just to see if his trained professional eyes would pick up on it. Well It was the 2nd thing he noticed. The first thing he noticed was that the rear of the action was sitting below the wood. So now I'm going to chalk things up as a rookie mistake and a learning experenice. My rookie mistake being that I didn't tell my smith that I wanted to shoot this rifle free recoil and wanted everything sitting parallel. My mistake being maybe I just wasn't clear enough with the smith, and assumed he new exactly what to give me. This being the reason I didn't, and want mention this smiths name or try to smear his name or rep. It could be that I didn't conmunicate well enough with him, or his opinion and mine of the way things need to be are different. Again I'm keeping in mind that I'm the rookie and he is the smith. How ever it is, I decieded to have Bill Shehane to just clean out the current bedding job and re-bed things, and move forward. Thanks for all the post guy's and feel free to keep commenting. I do have a open mind!
Thanks
Mark

Here are a cpl of pics.

Well guy's Thought I would do a follow up. Here are a cpl pics of the rifle after it has found it's way back home, and complete. Everything is sitting level an parllel now. Witch IMO is how things should be. Im very happy at this point with the rifle. I have worked up a load at 100yrds to see what it's potental might be, and fire form a cpl hundread pieces of brass. I want be able to test things out at 500yrd and 600yrd until the first of the year when deer season is out. Hopefully I'm be able to tweak my load and get it hammering when I have the chance to stretch her legs a bit. Even so I might still be the under dog, when I go up against some of those fine pieces of art, like BAT, and other awesome custom actions. If it want hang with them then I'll just Build another on a Bat Action, and have a fine looking varmint rifle to break my longest kill on a groundhog witch at this time is still 482yrds with a factory Ruger M77 mark II in 220swift.

As well I must say the Smith that first put this rifle together did a great job, other than the bedding! I figured out how I wanted to go about wording things to this smith to let him know of my findings, but not offend him! I ask a few questions about the chambering, headspace, etc. The smith told me exactly what was what. Then as I started to ask a cpl of questions about the stock the smith couldn't answer promptly as he did about the barrel. So this lead me to believe that he didn't do the bedding, or finishing inletting the stock to my action. I'm aware that he is teaching his son the business. So I let the cat out of the bag and told him what I found. He immediately called his son over. I had pic's to show what I was talking about. I have great respect for this smith, and have had work done by him before. I knew there was no way he would have let the work that was done out his door if he knew about it. As well I didn't want to loose a good relationship that we have had over the last few years. So I just had to figure out how to put things without offending him or his work, as well understand he is teaching his son the business, and everyone makes mistakes, but if they don't know it they will continue to make those mistakes and not do well with furture business. After all the discussion was over with the smith pulled $175 out of his wallet and wanted to repay me for what he had figured into for the bedding job. Because this Smith was man enough to own up to his mistake or his son's mistake for the job done, or the work he let out his door, I declined the money! His honestly was payment enough! Also All is well and everthing turned out for the best! I got what appears to be a tack driver, as well some of us have learned a few lessons! Improvement on both ends, no amount of money can replace that!
Mark

 

[Preacher]

I like the way you say and do thing's.......... your a good man !!!!!!!!!

 

[hawghunter]

2nd Preacher, your a good man

 

[TheRaiderStrategist]

Just to put my comments into perspective: I am an Armorer for pistols (glock, colt, springfields, berreta, etc.), precision sniper rifles (.308, .300, .338), automatic rifles (M4, M16, SCAR, MP5, etc), machine guns (M240, M249, M2, MK44 mini-gun, etc.), grenade and rocket launchers (Carl Gustav, SMAW, M203, etc.).

The tang in your picture, from what I can see, is a chemical reaction process caused by metal and wood (this is common with wood rifles). This is also caused by normal maintenance processes, such as oiling the actions. The tang appears to be sitting where it needs to be. The more important thing for tang and lug bolts are pillars should be installed, which are then "hugged" by the bedding compound (locking action like glove). If done right the bedding compound will be perfectly flush with pillar tops and bottoms where action rests and trigger guard / bolt eyelets touch. This prevents crushing or deviations caused by the gun heating up; thus, expanding metal. All metal used in firearms expands, some less than others, and some requiring a lot of heat for such reaction.

The stock appears to be giving the optical illusion of angled bedding. The action port (aka bolt window) appears to be slightly below wood stock (aka not flush). This is not a big deal, just inlet the window (aka cut excess) with the action still installed to flush it. However, I know how to use a camera quite well and it may also be another optical allusion and the action is in fact flush with the wood at the bolt port.

The point of bedding an action is to MITIGATE minutia changes as the firearm heats up. This isn't important for something such as a machine gun because its an area fire weapon anyways. I am impartial to bedding the chamber (before barrel taper point) or not. I can tell you precision long range sniper rifles typically do not have the area in front of lug bedded. The chamber WILL expand during shooting (pressures and heat). This WILL affect/deviate impacts. This is why you need to build detailed gun data. Something else to consider is resonance of barrel when a bullet wises down it. Every barrel is different. If you notice shot groups opening up with increased shots, then bed the chamber (where bullet rests) but keep in mind you WILL need to rebuild gun data. Another means for resonance is using dampeners at the very end of stock; keep in mind it won't be a true free float. Some barrels achieve better results this way while others do not. The important thing to remember about dampeners is to have a stock that does not warp with temperature changes. A stock made of quality aircraft grade aluminum or fiberglass will work. The only problem with fiber glass is the resin is the part that expands with temperature, more likely shooter induced errors then this to affect impacts. Check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFSPSzzNDw0 this is a good example of resonance as you can hear the ringing sound EVERYTIME they shoot. Resonance starts at the chamber when the bullet expands from firing. The expansion of the bullet causes a shockwave that resonates to the tip of the barrel alongside the projectile as it travels down the barrel. Think of it as hitting a baseball bat against a concrete wall, resonating from point of initial contact. The use of gloves while hitting a baseball bat against wall is same effect of dampening (stop or reduce ringing sound). If a free floated rifle was fired fast then the resonance (vibrations) would build and build until the shock waves started clashing (think of water waves) against each other at this point is when resonance will destroy accuracy by destabilizing bullet as it leaves muzzle.
A more common thing I have noticed in my sniping experience is bipods will affect trajectory more then an average person might think. This goes back into the resonance I was mentioning. Shoot bipods on soft dirt/grass and then shoot same distance from the top of concrete slab and then a wooden bench. I guarantee you will notice impact differences caused by resonance changes. Do all these surfaces while in a prone position to see what I am talking about; prone position because less deviation of shooter to rifle relation then prone to sitting.

If you have not shot that rifle and you're complaining about the job done then you need to sell that rifle. Each rifle is different just the same as some people prefer one stock over another. BTW wood stocks are extremely nice but regardless of what "experts" say they are not the best option for precision. Wood swells from humidity, heat, etc. Think of houses and how things expand and contract. Now obviously wood stocks have protective finished and in most cases are impregnated with resin but it still reacts to environment just like plastic synthetic stocks. Reinforced stocks (quality rigid metal inserts) are more tolerant to environmental affects as it acts to counter the tendency to warp if done right.

Long range precision rifles are a science. Novices look at them as a block of metal while pros dissect each minutia of every component from finish to composition and adjust for what works for them.

In the end if you don't like what you get then do it yourself. Firearms aren't some magical unicorn. A craftsman worth his/her salt can easily do any of the things you had done with your rifle with relative ease, achieve effectiveness, at material cost (if they have proper tools).

 

[muley]

No need to bed in front of a receiver. When the barrel heats up it will become a flex point pushing on the barrel. FREE FLOAT FREE FLOAT
If it is correctly bedded in the receiver area and not over contoured barrel(weight) constant vibration pattern is what we are looking to achieve. IMHO