bedding in front of the recoil lug, and Why?

[deadlyswift]

I would like to hear some opinion's from gunsmiths as to why bedding is needed in front of the recoil lug? I have had a rifle built, and my smith bedded the action in a way that I really don't understand. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to bad mouth or bash a gunsmith here. This smith is not a smith that is on this site so it isn't anybody here. More less I'm trying to understand why there should be bedding infront of the lug, or as well get my ducks in line before I start asking the smith that done the job why the job was done the way it's done. I do think I need to disscuss this with the smith that done the job. However I do want to handle this in a professional manner. I do want to have some kind of solid ground to stand on tho, if it does come down to disagreeing with the Smith.

Here is the deal. This is a Savage 12 3 screw target action. The barrel is a Broughton 5c, finshed at 28" and is 1" at the muzzle. I'm just a rookie, but I wouldn't think that this barrel is so heavy it would need to be bedded 2.5" infront of the lug. It also looks like the rear of the action is bedded too deep into the stock. The rear of the action is sitting about 3/16 of a inch below the wood. If you lay the rifle on a counter top sitting on the forend, or you sit the rifle in the gun vise the Action and barrel looks like it's running up hill. Again I'm not a gunsmith and just a rookie wanting to get my feet wet in Bench Rest. Here is what I'm worried about. If the action and the barrel are angled up and running up hill. When I try to shoot this rifle free recoil, I'm not so sure it will slide properly in the bags? I feel like the muzzle will rise, and not let the rifle slide straight back in the bags? Just to add here. The rifle is chambered in 6br. Also I wanted the barrel free floating. If there is bedding infront of the lug then the barrel isn't free floating, right? Thanks for any advice or comments that can explain these question a little to me!!
Mark

 

[JERRYHM]

Get a new rifle-smith! Search information on stress free bedding.

 

[deadlyswift]

JerryHM,
Yes I agree that a new smith is needed. I did do the search and I will read more later. Most of what the search gave me is what I was already under the impression that bedding jobs are for! Witch is why I am questioning the bedding infront of the lug. If bedding is touching anywhere in front of the lug then it is disrupting the vibration through out the barrel when the rifle is fired and causing inconsistency from shot to shot.
Thanks for the search tip!

Does anybody have any input on what I'm seeing with the action and barrel being angled upward? Will this cause the rifle to have muzzle rise and not slide straight back in the bags properly?
Thanks
Mark

 

[Kenny474]

I disagree with the opinion that the barrel will be negatively affected by bedding the first few inches. As long as it is making solid contact it will do no more than help support the long heavy barrel. This is a common procedure and if done properly will help far more than hinder. You don't need the entire length free floated, it only matters that what is floated has no contact with the stock and what is bedded has full contact without stressing the action or barrel.

You are running what is essentially a factory action, and while better than most it's still not as rigid as some of the larger custom actions. The custom actions that are used in rifles with long heavy barrels usually use a barrel with a much longer tenon so as to give the barrel extra support. Bedding the first few inches, if done properly, will have basically the same effect.

Now if the centerline of the barreled action is not parallel with the forearm and butt, and the butt and forearm are parallel with each other and designed for the barreled action to sit parallel in relation to the stock, than you may have an issue.

What stock are you using? Can you post a pic so it's easier to see exactly what is going on? Also, are you using a barrel nut?

I would get some opinions once others have seen the rifle and can judge what is going on. That is of no discredit to you, only so as to back up your claim if it proves to be just, which by the sound of it is. The barrel's centerline should be parallel to the forearm or pointing slightly downward ( I have seen some shortrange stocks that do this) if anything. I have never seen a bench rig with the barrel angled upward, and it seems as though it would cause issue.

 

[eddief]

How does it shoot?

 

[clowdis]

I won't address whether or not the barrelled action is straight in the stock, it ought to be. But, whether or not it is bedded in front of the recoil lug is mostly a matter of personal taste. Some like it and some don't. If the rifle is carrying a heavy barrel on a repeater action then I'd say that it's not a matter of opinion, it's necessary. If you have a heavy barrel on an action like a Barnard or Bat 3 lug then you don't need to do it. I haven't seen it cause a stress problem on a rifle of any kind though if it is kept under the straight section of the barrel shank. If any bedding gets under the tapered section of the shank then it will cause some problems as the rifle heats up. But, like I said, opinions vary.

 

[RIFLE1]

Ok,... I'll throw an opposing viewpoint in,..... I have no problem going against conventional "armchair" wisdom,.... and I won't say that your gunsmith did it on purpose,......

I have purposely bedded 26 to 28 barrels with a "gentle" upward slope. I have done this with 6mmbr's to 7WSM's,... one characteristic they all shared was extremely straight recoiling setups that did not,... or do not,.... bounce or hop near as much as parallel bedded rifles,........only real problem is here,... I think some benchrest disciplines expressly prohibit this type bedding setup. Perhaps there is a reason? I can't say for sure. As for bedding in front of the lug,...... I have seen some competitors who are very,... very successful at score and group shooting with setups that have bedding in front of the lug.

 

[deadlyswift]

Ok guy's here is where I'm at today. I will post a cpl of pic. I did try to crop the pics to show things a little better but they still don't show what I'm really talking about.

So I got up this morning and got at it. I set up some 2x4s and made sure they were perfectly level on my work bench. Then I set the rifle on the 2x4s. The butt of the stock was showing level, as well the forend. I also checked the stock back at the port of the action. The stock was sitting level on the 2x4s. Once I had everything siting level, I laid the level on top of the receiver. It is going up hill as well the barrel is also. Now as to weather or not the bedding in front of the lug will make a difference I don't really know. Like I said to start with I'm a rookie. I can see the point that (Kenny474) made that as long as the bedding made full contact then it want have a negiative affect on the barrel. I guess it's like (clowdis) said it's personal taste. My personal taste I guess happens to be no bedding infront of the lug. The bedding in the front of the lug at this point isn't my main concern any more. At this point and I was taking a much closer look at things, I was very concerned about the action and barrel not sitting parallel in the stock.

So here is what I done. Knowing that I only live about 1 1/2 hrs drive from Bill Shehane, and I already had plans to send the stock back to him to be clear coated anyway I gave him a call. I wanted him to see the whole rifle without telling him what I was seeing. Just to see if his trained professional eyes would pick up on it. Well It was the 2nd thing he noticed. The first thing he noticed was that the rear of the action was sitting below the wood. So now I'm going to chalk things up as a rookie mistake and a learning experenice. My rookie mistake being that I didn't tell my smith that I wanted to shoot this rifle free recoil and wanted everything sitting parallel. My mistake being maybe I just wasn't clear enough with the smith, and assumed he new exactly what to give me. This being the reason I didn't, and want mention this smiths name or try to smear his name or rep. It could be that I didn't conmunicate well enough with him, or his opinion and mine of the way things need to be are different. Again I'm keeping in mind that I'm the rookie and he is the smith. How ever it is, I decieded to have Bill Shehane to just clean out the current bedding job and re-bed things, and move forward. Thanks for all the post guy's and feel free to keep commenting. I do have a open mind!
Thanks
Mark

Here are a cpl of pics.

 

[Kenny474]

Deadlyswift,
The last photo really illustrates the issue of the uphill bedding very well. If you look at the reflection on the barrel you can see the barrel is sitting deeper in the channel in the rear than the front.

It also looks as though the tang has contact with the bedding as well, though it may only be photo angle adding an illusion. I had always been under the impression that the tang should be floated, though I only know this from researching the subject prior to bedding my own and have not tested the theory to see if any actual difference is made.

I feel you have made a very good decision in having it re-bedded. Though my opinion holds little value, it still seems to be the best solution.

Good luck, hopefully it will be fixed soon so you can get to shooting. You have a very nice looking rifle, I hope it shoots as good as it looks.

Kenny

 

[hammerjack]

Mark: It looks like the trigger guard is sticking out unless you have it loose.The trigger guard is flush on my Savage stocks.---Joe Allen

 

[deadlyswift]

Joe, Yes the back screw wasn't installed on the trigger guard. I don't know why this was left like this. To me it's a simple fix and the least of my problems, but yet a lack of Workmanship and attention to detail. My new Smith is going to put in a insert, add a screw, and make sure that the tigger guard is sitting flush.

Kenny Thanks for the compliments. I too hope things aren't much worse than what I'm worring about. I can't help but wonder if what has been done wrong so far hopefully there isn't anything wrong with my chamber. I did take my former smith a brand new PT&G reamer grinded to the spec's of my dummy round. I'm just praying that the chamber was cut with that reamer and cut properly. Makes me wish I had my Hawkeye bore scope NOW instead of it beinging delivered Monday! :'( My reamer sure is very clean? and doesn't have any kind of machine marks on it at all. I'm about to go see a smith that lives about 5 miles up the road and see if he thinks my reamer has even been inside a bore? :'(
Thanks
Mark

 

[Kenny474]

I wouldn't sweat it too much. The good news is you still have your reamer and if there is any issue at all, it won't be too much hassle to clean the chamber up quickly and take a bit off the end of the barrel.

I know it has to be frustrating, but you can only go forward and looking back will only frustrate you further. You have a very nice looking rifle, and even though you have had a few issues, it will all be in the past once it's done and at the range.

I hope it all turns out well.
Kenny

 

[wapiti25]

As it has been said before there are more than one way to do things. When you first start to talk to a gun smith you need to explaine what you want to accomplish or expect. If you want some thing done a certain way ask but remember he may tell you to go somewhere else. I've told people to go somewhere else or do it themselves. To bed or not bed under the barrel is a personal opinion, to bed in front of the lug is a personal opinion. I had a very well known smith tell me not to bed in front, he makes very accurate guns. The same smith did not like the bedding compound that I had been using so I'm using the one he recomended. Guns are are a system and you need to test the system and see what works for you. I think you should have shot the gun before you did any thing else or have him shoot it and show you that it works or not. I would not go back to him at this point because you did not give the gun a test, you would only upset him. I hope you shoot little tiny groups or hit where you point.

 

[jo191145]

I know a smith that beds Savages just like yours was done. Including the tang. Goes against conventional mainstream wisdom. But the guy does know his stuff and has the trophies to back it up.
I never tried bedding in front of the lug myself.
So how does it shoot?

 

[holstil]

That looks like some type of Shehane stock. If it is like my st1000, the fore arm rails rise a touch, could be giving the impression the the barrel is lower in the front.
To have your ducks lined up would probably mean to know how it shoots.
Im not sayin, I'm just sayin. What if this thing hammers. You know what I'm sayin?
Jim

 

[deadlyswift]

I did not shoot the rifle. Maybe that was a rookie mistake. Bottom line. I just wasn't happy with what I was seeing. Like a cpl have said bedding infornt of the lug may go against conventional methods, and it may have shot great. Even if the rifle shot great I was just not happy with the looks of the bedding around the tang. It looked like a bedding job that I might have down on my first rifle if I had atempted to bed it. To have put the amount of time into decisions an components, as well the amount of money spent, I expected a more perfessional job to have been done. Some my not care about what something looks like if it works well, but I do. Just my taste of things I guess!

How ever upon a little more investigation it seems that this rifle wasn't bedded by my gunsmith. It was bedded by his son. Either way the gun smith stamped his name to someone else's work. Maybe it should have been inspected by the gunsmith that I thought was building my rifle. I have a factory rifle that was bedded in the same gunsmith's shop. The tang is floating no bedding is even visiable. The action and barrel are both parallel with the stock and it shoots great to be a factory rifle. .5 moa out to 400yrds. and that's on a bad set up as far as a front rest. Like I said above. I am moving foward with this and not looking back as to what was done not to my likeing. Things are in the process of being fixed and I am only going to look foward now.
Thanks for all the replies guys. It is always great to have different opinion's to look at and think about.
Mark

 

[holstil]

Yep, it kinda looks like smeared peanut butter colored poo poo right there in the tang area.
Maybe give him a chance to reconcile, even though he shouldn't have sent it out that way.
I was just sayin, if it shot well, maybe you could live with it. Just a fellow shooting enthusiast try to console another. Some people like peanut butter. Sometimes laughter is good it sooths the anger.
Jim

 

[holstil]

I'm sorry, I gotta ask. How old is his son?
Jim

 

[Kenny474]

Mark, I agree with you totally that you should not have to settle if the job is not to your liking. The smith also should have asked if you minded that he farm out the work to someone else beside himself even if it was his son, as you went to him and paid him to do the work. If you wanted the work done by someone else, you probably would have brought it somewhere else.

It also looks as though his son relieved several areas far more than needed, and then just smooshed in some compound to fill the gaps. Not my idea of a quality bed job. The rifle should have been inspected, and you should have been questioned as to whether the sub-par work would be acceptable, and probably offered a substantial discount as well.

Bottom line, it looks as though the stock was relieved with a dull chisel, the bedding looks to be applied and smoothed with a plastic spoon at best, the barrel was pointing uphill and also bedded in front of the lug and it was missing hardware to boot. Nobody should have to simply accept such lacking quality. You are right in not even bothering to shoot it. I wouldn't have either.

 

[deadlyswift]

holstil, I would say his son is around my age maybe a cpl years older. So med to late 30s. No offence at all to anyones comments. I do have a open mind, and the anger is pretty much well over with at this point. Everything is in the hands of a well known perfessioal now!
Thanks
Mark