bat action misfire
- Thread starter favload
- Start date
I have seen this problem on MANY BAT actions,I have three of them). The firing pins on the BAT are too light, the spring are too light IF you have almost any head space! I got 10% failures with just .002" of head space and 100% at .004" of head space. A stiffer firing pin spring helps some. I add weigh to the firing pin which fixed the problems with failure to fire on my actions. The weight was added between the front of the spring and the pin.
Forum Boss
Administrator
Jerry,
You should call the guys at BAT and mention this.
Also question--how is the weight added? Are you attaching a bit of metal or a washer or something?
You should call the guys at BAT and mention this.
Also question--how is the weight added? Are you attaching a bit of metal or a washer or something?
Wow, thats good to know! I can't imagine why I have not read about this before. It seems like a big deal to have 1.5% or more failior rates through my custom gun. Can you explain in detail how to add weight to the pin or is there aftermarket parts I could buy. I want to try and do the work myself.
thanks
jer
thanks
jer
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Wow!!! I have 2 Bat Actions and have never experienced this. If I had this problem, I would contact Bat and not people on a forum.
Butch
Butch
More likely would be that the firing pin is dragging. One of my SVs had a firing pin that was too tight. Bruce,Thom) fixed it for me.
To check, just pop the firing pin out and see if it will slide in the hole from the front. They keep the clearance tight, sometimes a little too tight apparently.
To check, just pop the firing pin out and see if it will slide in the hole from the front. They keep the clearance tight, sometimes a little too tight apparently.
I have contacted Bruce more than once on this problem. I have extra firing pins and have sent them back for stronger springs which helped. I know of at least 6 actions that have had failures to fire. It occurs when fire forming or if the cases have been over sized a couple of thousands. The weight I added was made from a 243 barrel, OD turned to a few thousands under the max. firing pin diameter, ID opened so it slides on the pin,before the spring). The Length is 1/4 to 3/8" making sure that it is not too long for cocking the pin. The added weight DID fix the problem. It is not firing pin drag or pin protrusion it is caused by the lack of energy. It might help to use the thinner cup primers,Feds)when fire forming over the harder cci-brs.
Forum Boss
Administrator
butchlambert said:
Butch, Jerry was responding to a specific question about BAT FTF and explained a solution.
You may not know, but JerryHM is an engineer, and the current NBRSA 600-yard National Champion and past NBRSA 1000-yard Champion.
I think we're all fortunate to have his input on this issue, and I'm sure his findings can help BAT refine things in the future.
http://www.6mmbr.com/600nbrsa08.html
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Another slant on this...
I have a Viper that I have fitted with one of Greg Tannel's light weight firing pins. I think that it weighs about 60% of the stock pin. The spring that came with it is 25#, which he has found is needed with the light pin. Another factor is the .062 firing pin tip which requires less energy to get the job done. In any case, this combination jars the action less than the all steel stock firing pin and 19# spring, when dry fired, and it never fails to fire. Just out of curiosity,what is the diameter of the BAT pin tip? There is more than one way to skin a cat. On the other hand, keeping the bat's light spring and adding weight will preserve the easy bolt lift.
I have a Viper that I have fitted with one of Greg Tannel's light weight firing pins. I think that it weighs about 60% of the stock pin. The spring that came with it is 25#, which he has found is needed with the light pin. Another factor is the .062 firing pin tip which requires less energy to get the job done. In any case, this combination jars the action less than the all steel stock firing pin and 19# spring, when dry fired, and it never fails to fire. Just out of curiosity,what is the diameter of the BAT pin tip? There is more than one way to skin a cat. On the other hand, keeping the bat's light spring and adding weight will preserve the easy bolt lift.
DJSBRS
Site $$ Sponsor
I had the same problem with one of my Bats. Finally figured out that the spring tension adjustment was set incorrect. Took it apart and made 2 full revolutions on the adjustment and I could tell an immediate difference in the striking pressure. Thus, no more problems fireformimg or consistent ignition.
Darrell
Darrell
Jewell triggers can cause this problem. For a couple of years, maybe around 1999 +/-, they were made with the contact surface somewhat forward of the original dimension. This reduced possibility of a slam fire when rapidly slamming the bolt home but also reduced firing pin travel.
For that reason, a lot of BAT actions, and others, have the pin holes in the trigger hangers slightly off center. This gives you two options in mounting the trigger, more forward or more aft, depending on the orientation of the hanger when installed.
You might investigate this and/or discuss it with someone at BAT.
For that reason, a lot of BAT actions, and others, have the pin holes in the trigger hangers slightly off center. This gives you two options in mounting the trigger, more forward or more aft, depending on the orientation of the hanger when installed.
You might investigate this and/or discuss it with someone at BAT.
Jerry, in my case it was firing pin drag and it was the first thing that Bruce had me check when I sent him a note on the issue. I had about the same failure rate as you,although it didn't show up until I was in the middle of a match) with new 6BR brass with CCI BR primers. After the fix, same new brass, same new primers, no misfires. I've got three BATs also,2 SVs and one M) and haven't had a single failure in the other two.
I'm not disagreeing with your experiences, but I have to disagree with a categorical diagnosis of a misfire problem with a bolt that no one other than the original poster has even seen. The real answer could very well be: none of the above.
After Bruce told me how to check the clearance, I did the same procedure on a Borden, Nesika, and a couple of Greg Tannel's bushing jobs,one on a Sako and one on a Rem) and the clearance on all of my BATs is much tighter than any of the others. The bolt,firing pin) in question had no clearance--it dragged--and now it doesn't.
Boyd, the firing pin on my SV measures out at .070". That'd make it kind of a 'tweener wouldn't it?
robert
I'm not disagreeing with your experiences, but I have to disagree with a categorical diagnosis of a misfire problem with a bolt that no one other than the original poster has even seen. The real answer could very well be: none of the above.
After Bruce told me how to check the clearance, I did the same procedure on a Borden, Nesika, and a couple of Greg Tannel's bushing jobs,one on a Sako and one on a Rem) and the clearance on all of my BATs is much tighter than any of the others. The bolt,firing pin) in question had no clearance--it dragged--and now it doesn't.
Boyd, the firing pin on my SV measures out at .070". That'd make it kind of a 'tweener wouldn't it?
robert
Jerry,
I've had quite a few FTFs with both barrels,6.5x55 AI & straight 284) I have fitted to my BAT 3LL,ser#01). I set both of them up with no more than .001" headspace. Fireforming with the 6.5 barrel is more problematic than the 284, as you might expect.
However, the biggest factor is that all the FTFs have been with Wolf LRM primers. No problems whatsoever with CCI BR2s, F210s, WLRs, or R 9-1/2s. Have also had a few FTFs with Wolf LRMs in the first 284 I built on a long M700, which has a PTG lightweight striker assembly in a custom PTG bolt. I've also had a few FTFs with Wolf SRMs in a BAT 3L in 6x47L, which also has a minimum headspace chamber. Again, no issues with other brands of primers in the BAT. To the best of my recollection, no problems with Wolfs in another 6x47 built on a M700 with the OEM striker assembly, but with a bushed FP hole & .061" dia. pin.
Though I prefer to use a RCBS hand priming tool, I've gone back to using a RCBS ram-prime unit set up in a Partner press with Wolf primers, both large & small. The press gives plenty of leverage & feel to allow seating with a little crush, but even at that, there've still been some FTF with 'em. If they weren't so accurate & consistent over the chrono, I'd probably have stopped using them. As it is, when loading for a match, I make darned sure I've got several spare rounds along if I'm using Wolf primers.
I've had quite a few FTFs with both barrels,6.5x55 AI & straight 284) I have fitted to my BAT 3LL,ser#01). I set both of them up with no more than .001" headspace. Fireforming with the 6.5 barrel is more problematic than the 284, as you might expect.
However, the biggest factor is that all the FTFs have been with Wolf LRM primers. No problems whatsoever with CCI BR2s, F210s, WLRs, or R 9-1/2s. Have also had a few FTFs with Wolf LRMs in the first 284 I built on a long M700, which has a PTG lightweight striker assembly in a custom PTG bolt. I've also had a few FTFs with Wolf SRMs in a BAT 3L in 6x47L, which also has a minimum headspace chamber. Again, no issues with other brands of primers in the BAT. To the best of my recollection, no problems with Wolfs in another 6x47 built on a M700 with the OEM striker assembly, but with a bushed FP hole & .061" dia. pin.
Though I prefer to use a RCBS hand priming tool, I've gone back to using a RCBS ram-prime unit set up in a Partner press with Wolf primers, both large & small. The press gives plenty of leverage & feel to allow seating with a little crush, but even at that, there've still been some FTF with 'em. If they weren't so accurate & consistent over the chrono, I'd probably have stopped using them. As it is, when loading for a match, I make darned sure I've got several spare rounds along if I'm using Wolf primers.
Nodak7mm
Team Lefse
Favload,
I was lucky enough to spend several hours with Bruce this past week in his shop and he showed me how to remove the firing pin from the bolt body on my MB action w/out using the tool. I'll do my best to explain it. ..
Grasping/lay the bolt upside in your weak hand, use your strong hand to rotate shroud/firing pin assy clockwise appx 1/4" and you will feel it will want to pop out. Hang on because spring psi is loaded and note the to alignment lugs. To install, reverse and rotate back counter-clockwise to detent cut. Bruce did say that if you go to far and get the cocking lug to disenage into the cam valley, you will need the bolt tool.
Piece O cake. I find it very easy to accomplish..
Nodak
I was lucky enough to spend several hours with Bruce this past week in his shop and he showed me how to remove the firing pin from the bolt body on my MB action w/out using the tool. I'll do my best to explain it. ..
Grasping/lay the bolt upside in your weak hand, use your strong hand to rotate shroud/firing pin assy clockwise appx 1/4" and you will feel it will want to pop out. Hang on because spring psi is loaded and note the to alignment lugs. To install, reverse and rotate back counter-clockwise to detent cut. Bruce did say that if you go to far and get the cocking lug to disenage into the cam valley, you will need the bolt tool.
Piece O cake. I find it very easy to accomplish..
Nodak
Lynn,
The BAT's made for the last several years have the bayonet style firing pin. About a half a turn clockwise and bingo, comes right out. No tools needed. The wings on the bayonet style keeps the tilt from happening that commonly happens with threads. Also, the firing pin sprin weight is lighter and the travel is shorter on purpose. This is to minimize the vibrations that take place and speed up the lock time. Remember, these actions are design specifically for Benchrest applications. I have four SV's and never have had a misfire. I commonly swap firing pins and bolts between guns to see if any difference can be detected. Never one ounce. I'm sure Bruce will solve any problem a BAT has. They are very tight tolerance and something will slip through every now and then. A headspace over .002 causing a misfire, haven't had one of them yet either. Guess I've been very lucky and hope it continues.
Kevin
The BAT's made for the last several years have the bayonet style firing pin. About a half a turn clockwise and bingo, comes right out. No tools needed. The wings on the bayonet style keeps the tilt from happening that commonly happens with threads. Also, the firing pin sprin weight is lighter and the travel is shorter on purpose. This is to minimize the vibrations that take place and speed up the lock time. Remember, these actions are design specifically for Benchrest applications. I have four SV's and never have had a misfire. I commonly swap firing pins and bolts between guns to see if any difference can be detected. Never one ounce. I'm sure Bruce will solve any problem a BAT has. They are very tight tolerance and something will slip through every now and then. A headspace over .002 causing a misfire, haven't had one of them yet either. Guess I've been very lucky and hope it continues.
Kevin
So far about 200 rds have been put throught the gun and there has been at leat 6-8 misfires maybe more. I don't like the idea of that at all especially since the gun was designed and bult for tactical applications as well as target stuff. I'm not sure much can be done when we open it up but thanks for the tips. I was hoping that we could just increaes spring tension without getting any new parts?? We will give it a try and if nothing can be done it will get sent in to BAT.
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