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Basic "Inherint" Accuracy Question

A couple of rookie questions here. Kindly appreciate your guidance.

I understand that in theory short fat unbelted cases are supposed to be more accurate. Am I right that the theories are when the cartridge headspaces on the shoulder it's more uniform than what results from headspacing on the belt? (I assume the shorter / fatter preference is due to more reliable power ignition.)

What do you do to work with belted cases (i.e. 300 win mag) to overcome the belted issue?

Also, how about a radiused shoulder like a weatherby vs. a normal angled shoulder? Does that impact "inherent" accuracy / present some reloading challenges?
 
Just set your dies up like any other non-belted case with no more the .0015 to .002 head space bump and then the belt isn't what your relying on. My hunting rife is a .257 WBY mag and I also reload for a friends .270 WBY mag. Sometime ago I purchased a digital headspace gauge from Larry Willis / InnovativeTechnologies 407-695-2685 www.LARRYWILLIS.com it's the most user friendly gauge for getting consistent measurement reading you'll find and no addition inserts to purchase. Once you've used one you'll threw your old Hornady Stoney Point away.

Regards
RJ
 
quickdraw: Excellent, in depth article on belted cases, page 181, in "precision Shooting reloading Guide", detailing all their related problems, and the "solution" when loading. I briefly loaded 300 Winchester Magnum, and ignored the belt, after adjusting the FL sizing die so the cartridge headspaced on the shoulder, not the belt, so it loaded like a beltless case. No problems. Not the best of ideas from cartridge designers.
 
Thanks. Very helpful. I'll pick up a copy of the Precision Shooting Reloading Guide.

Any thoughts on radiused shoulder versus regular?

Thanks,
QD
 
Quickdraw, the above answers are right on, i have 300wm in 700, with hart bbl, shoot .4 with 180.165's the cases are sized to just touch the shoulder, slightly more sizing than neck only, forget the belt, never a bolt closing problem and never a tight case problem

Bob
 
QD: I have no personal experience/knowledge with any Weatherby cartridge, have no need for them, so cannot comment. Maybe someone with "hands-on" experience can chime in.
 
QD,

the Weatherby radiused shoulder is pretty universally regarded as a unique selling point (aka 'marketing gimmick') by those knowledgeable on cartridge design matters. Roy Weatherby was a remarkable man and all power to his (late) elbow on generating business and making customers happy, but he sold a lot of rifles and ammunition on the back of some technically dubious claims for both internal and terminal ballistics.

At a time just after WW2 when belted magnums were typified by the steeply tapered H&H designs, he was an early innovator in 'factory improved' cartridges - take the 30-40 year old British designs, and remove most of the case-taper to increase powder capacity substantially. While the British cartridges were designed for case-length cordite strands in African summer temperatures and were deliberately conservative in load fill-ratios and maximum pressures, Weatherby loaded his cases up to the gunnels and ran them at what were exceptionally high pressures at the time around the 65,000 psi mark, some batches reckoned to be hitting 70,000 psi even! To allow even more usable pressure, all Weatherby chambers had lots of freebore with a large bullet jump to the riflling built in. Put all these things together and you got some of the highest performing cartridges of the day, and even now. As a great salesman, Weatherby publicly attributed this to his patented case-shape and the 'venturi effect' of the radiused shoulder improving combustion. (Doesn't that sound familiar again now with all the claims about short-fat case shapes?!)

Until recently, Weatherby designs remained 'proprietary' and Norma Precision loaded factory cartridges for the company. They're no longer 'proprietary', but you don't see all ammunition makers rushing to adopt the 'super-efficient radiused shoulder' which tells you something, rather they went a quite different way - short and fat cases, no belt, and headspace on the shoulder, as per the Lazzaroni designs, WSMs, Rem SAUMs etc. Nothing wrong with Weatherby cartridges as sporting numbers, but I wouldn't consider them for precision target shooting.


Frank and others,

If I may add my twopence worth on the belted magnum and accuracy issue, I have a 'bitzer' .300 Holland & Holland Magnum built by a friendly gunsmith out of his spare parts bin - not a single new component except for the Ken Farrel 20-MOA sloped scope rail and the bedding pillars and materials. Winchester P'14 ('Enfield') action, heavy Bishop walnut target rifle stock, 30" Australian Maddco heavy Palma profile 1-12" twist barrel off a .308W prone rifle. Rechambering to the long H&H cartridge 'cleaned' the old chamber and throat out and I got a long-range F-Class rifle for very little money. It was fun for a couple of years and pushed 185/190s out at 3,000 fps accurately, but was soon uncompetitive given F-Class developments.

Given the almost complete lack of shoulder on the old 300 H&H (8 degrees 30 mins shoulder angle compared to 25 degrees on the .300 Winchester Magnum) you have to stick with the belt for headspacing. Norman Clark its builder gave it a minimum SAAMI belt recess and cases are a really snug fit - all to the good! I read all the stuff about belt diameters changing from loading to loading that's in the Precision Shooting reloading manual, and thought it wouldn't apply to me - moderate loads, neck-sizing only, so a good snug case body fit in the chamber, the tight headspace and support on the belt. Brass is new unprimed Winchester, elderly by the look of the 20-case cardboard cartons and the old red on white background Winchester logo, and fantastically consistent and well made apart from the need to debur the flash-holes and uniform the primer pockets.


Anyway ........... everything in the Precision Shooting guide is true! Four, max five firings and the cases are scrap in this chamber. The belts and the case body just above them expand a little bit on each firing. At around firing four or five with my standard load, you get noticeably harder chambering on turning the bolt handle down, then the additional tiny bit of belt expansion on that firing sees half the cases fail to come out without use of a rod or drop-weight. The massive P'14 extractor claw cannot extract them such is the tight fit of the belt in the recess, but pulls right through the rim. There's nothing else wrong with the cases - tight primer pockets etc - and they'd probably be fine still in a loosely chambered sporting rifle.

All this brought home to me the disadvantages of relying on that little raised rim at the back of the case. Not surprising either as it was never designed by H&H back in 1910 or so for match cartridges. the intention was to get the positive benefits of rimmed case headspacing but with a well tapered case body up front for absolutely flawless feed and extraction for dangerous game-shooting in the then newfangled bolt-action magazine rifles. British riflemakers had to start making them alongside their 'doubles' in order to compete with Mauser and Mannlicher who were stealing the African rifle building trade with cheaper bolt-guns. It was a brilliant answer to that problem at that time, but this 100 years on, and I wouldn't have another belted magnum now for target shooting.

Incidentally, the 'antiquated' .300 H&H is an excellent antidote to faddism in cartridge design. It has 'everything wrong' - belt, 2.850" case-length, 8-deg shoulder etc, etc. But ........... it's a very, very accurate cartridge inherently and gives identical MVs to Winchester's fashionable .300WSM which by coincidence (or, maybe not!) has virtually identical case capacity and maximum allowed pressure to the H&H. I've had WSM owners tell me their rifles give an extra 100 fps over mine because of 'cartridge case efficiency' and that their 26" barrel sporters will match my 30" match rifle. B*LLSH*T !! Look at any manual and you'll find the two give same MVs for any particular powder and charge weight give or take a few fps if the test barrel length is the same. The same powders give best MVs and results in both designs despite the great difference in their shapes. I'd pit a good H&H against a WSM for accuracy too providing the belt fit / headspace is right and the brass new. As I said, there are many disadvantages to belted magnums in target shooting, but lack of 'efficiency' isn't one of them. Despite the unfashionably long powder column, the H&H gives remarkably small velocity ES values too, a big plus in a long-range rifle. One real advantage I do see in the new short-case designs though is the ability to build rifles on shorter, stiffer actions.

I still have the Winchester .300 H&H and will do some primer tests in it this summer to see if the long case really does need magnum primers as is so often said in loading manuals and elsewhere. Then ............... I'm swithering as to whether I should just scrap it as the long P'14 military action is hardly state of the art in modern rifle design, or to have it rebarrelled to the .300 Remington SAUM with a quality barrel, and see how it does against all the modern kit at long-range.

Laurie,
York, England
 
Laurie: I enjoy reading your posts, and continue to learn from them. I did not mean to imply that the belt was a poor design from the "beginning", but rather the "modern" belt on the 7mm Remington Magnum and the 300 Winchester Magnum, with their more than adequate shoulders, certainly had no legitimate need for them. it has been said, by many knowledgable people, that it was strictly a marketing ploy in an attempt to convince buyers that it was a true "magnum", thus it required the "stronger" belted case. Pure B.S. of course, as since proven by Lazzaroni, and even Rem. & Win. with their recent RUM, WSM & WSSM cartridges. There are probably as many hucksters and BS artist's in the shooting game as anywhere else. How else to explain Remington's E-Tronix primer system, and Winchester's 223 WSSM, a cartridge with so many problems, even Winchester/Browning no longer offers it in their own chamberings. I could go on with other examples of outright lies and unproven claims, but don't want to step on anybodies toes. Thanks again for your very knowledgable postings.
 
I did not mean to imply that the belt was a poor design from the "beginning", but rather the "modern" belt on the 7mm Remington Magnum and the 300 Winchester Magnum, with their more than adequate shoulders, certainly had no legitimate need for them. it has been said, by many knowledgable people, that it was strictly a marketing ploy in an attempt to convince buyers that it was a true "magnum", thus it required the "stronger" belted case.

Hi Frank,

I didn't take it that way - was just adding my little bit of knowledge about these cartridges and my own experiences with the 300 H&H to the discussion. As I said, the belt was a valid solution to a problem at the time, although I'm sure H&H could have gone down the rimless route even then. I'd bet the belt was sold as an 'improvement' over the rimless German cartridges - as you say there's no shortage of BS in gun and cartridge design, and as long as every new development keeps selling stuff everybody's happy.

The manufacturers do really get it wrong sometimes though - I think of the WSSMs, a marketing led innovation that fooled me I've got to admit. Buying a Winchester 70 Stealth in .243WSSM could only be described as one of my poorer shooting decisions, and that's being charitable!

Laurie
 
Frank, Laurie, how about spreading a little more knowledge about them wssm cartridges please?
Is this a chronic plague with regard to all wssm's?
inquiring mind, Jim
 
Jim,

very heavy brass with massive neck walls (over 20 thou' thickness), inconsistent neck wall dimensions and big case weight variations too. Only ever made by Winchester, and not up to its best standards. Needs full-house loads to obturate properly in the chamber. If loaded up fully, hard bolt-opening and extraction - very much so with factory ammo.

No more case capacity than .243 Win, but a little more performance through higher maximum pressures - then you get hard extraction and short barrel life. Only Winchester and Browning made rifles for it, probably only Browning now. Bores were chrome-plated to increase barrel life and some didn't work that well. My Winchester was made in the last months of New Haven before FN-USA shut it down, and I think that showed.

In theory, the short fat case would make it a better cartridge than .243 Win - it's not! Actually, it's a poorer one. My advice to anybody considering one is don't - get a .243 instead and if you want a bit more performance, .243AI.

Finally, these rifles also have a super-short action to match the WSSM COAL, but a full-size magnum case-head dia. bolt-face, so when you've burned the barrel out, there's very little (read nothing) else you can rebarrel it to without sleeving the bolt face to 0.473" to work with the BRs.

I think that's enough to get started on. But, I know not everybody agrees with me - there are a few WSSM fans out there. I think it's a dying cartridge though with no other manufacturer having picked it up.

Laurie
 
Please bare with me on this guys, I am ignorant in the ways of chambering a rifle but this thread has alot of answers to some questions I have had. One that I had that has not been discussed is, why couldn't a guy have a reamer that cuts the belt to a number that is feasible deeper than normal on a 300win chamber and just headspace off the shoulder and ignore the belt altogether? Jason
 
Laurie
The 300 Wby case is a precision target shooting case. It held the World Record 1000 Yard Benchrest groups (in 6.5, 7mm and 30) 10 shots in the late 60s, all thru the 70s and 80s and into the 90s. The 308 Baer reigned in the 90s which is the same case w/o the double radiused shoulder and blown out a little (35 deg shoulder). I was there I saw it and I couldn't let this go undefended, I don't know if the venturi shoulder had anything to do with it, but evidently it sure didn't hurt it.
 
Dan: I don't believe anyone (myself included) is questioning the accuracy of the factory 300 Winchester Magnum. If there were problems related to accuracy the military would not be using it for long range "situations" when the 308 is just not enough. But, the presence of a belt has nothing to do with its accuracy. The belt could be machined off the case head, a custom chambering reamer made without the belt included, the ammo loaded identically, and there would be no change in the accuracy, with or without the belt. The bottom line is that the belt has no legitimate purpose other than as a marketing/selling ploy. Once again, proven by all the "really big" magnums that have come along recently. A solution to a non-existing problem.
 
fdshuster
The belt doesn't hurt nothing-I've never headspaced off the belt always on the shoulder. Why would Wilson make a headspace gauge for the 300 Wby, etc that is adjustable to check headspace off the shoulder if reloaders didn't headspace in this manner-I was only commenting on the precision accuracy obtainable with the 300 Wby case with the venturi shoulder and replied with fact not bs. It worked and still does. Quality brass was and is available, great bullets and primers and outstanding new and old powders. Other cartridges work also. I think inherent accuracy is mostly bs or they (who believe this worn-out phrase) are equated it with quality components. I remember reading an old American Rifleman (early 1950s) Clyde Hart (later the barrel maker) won the NBRSA National Championship with a improved 219 Zipper, and it wasn't the inherently accurate 219 Donaldson Wasp and he noted that almost any case could do it with quality components and rifle and he proved it.
 
Dan,

I never said the venturi shoulder affected accuracy - I honestly don't know if it does either way. My point was that Weatherby 'improved' the cases massively and ran his factory ammo at very high pressures - much higher than the base British H&H base cartridges and loads. Naturally, this plus the generous freebore dimensions, gave substantially higher MVs from the .300 Weatherby compared to the base .300 H&H. Mr Weatherby very adroitly 'explained' all this through the double-radius shoulder making the cartridge more 'efficient'. He built up a good company with good products on this and similar claims - if you wanted the 'best' high-power sporting rifle you very likely aspired to a Weatherby 40 or 50 years ago.

I've no problem with this - good for him! It's just I doubt that the double-radius shoulder had anything much to do with the performance improvements. Today, we have the short, fat case shape as the answer to the maiden's prayer, but as I said, I'd pit the ancient and 'all-wrong design' tapered .300 H&H against the .300WSM in terms of inherent accuracy and ballistic performance. I also said the .300WSM is a better cartridge though, not because of its shape's 'ballistic' efficiency, but because of the disposal of the belt and its shorter length allowing the use of shorter, hence stiffer actions.

That gun and ammunition guru Mic Macpherson wrote an article some years back touching on this subject. I think it was in an earlier edition of Cartridges Of The World, but never manage to find it now when I try to look it out. As he notes, every year experimenters come up with their wildcats that massively improve on the performance of the factory .243 Winchester say, due to their special 36.75-degree shoulder and slightly reduced/increased case body length/taper or whatever. By making these relatively minor case shape changes, they're much more efficient in the developer's claims, so a more or less .243 size case produces another 200 fps 'through efficiency improvements'.

As Mr Macpherson points out, the typical wildcatter's load development consists of running powder charge weights up till the primer blows or suffers some other nastiness, then reducing the charge by 0.5gn. Put the resulting cartridge into a pressure barrel and you'll find it's running at 70,000 psi + usually. Reduce the charge to give pressures that meet SAAMI requirements for the firearm and you're back at the factory cartridge MVs. The minor case changes count for little or nothing, maximum pressures for a great deal. Bearing this in mind doesn't make the wildcat version a better or worse cartridge than the factory version, it may be either, but it doesn't produce better performance ballistically.

Going back to long-range target shooting, there is a whole series of .300 Magnums that seem to produce an inherently good relationship between case capacities, powders available, bullet weights, and lengthy barrels. The .300 H&H was the first large belted .300 magnum to be used to win the Wimbledon Cup back in the 1930s and was the cartridge for long-rnage match shooting amongst wealthy US competitors as a rifle couldn't be built to suit using an off the shelf American action. The .300 Win Mag naturally slotted into that role from its introduction in 1957 especially as the Winchester 70 and Remington 721 actions accepted it with a little modification, then the necked-down .338 Win Mag to give the .30-338 Magnum, a .300 Win Mag with a slightly shortened body length, and so on. I'm not surprised the Weatherby fitted in there somewhere and with intelligent load-development and good case preparation and handloading practices, would do well. Today, few would use any of these, rather debate whether the WSM or SAUM has a slightly better case capacity for a long-range, high-capacity cartridge.

I'm not on the business of knocking or promoting any of these, only I'm (a) sceptical of claims for any and all about the effciency imparted by this gizzmo, or that gizzmo. and (b) to go back to the original subject topic, think the belt is something you're better off without, and if you're stuck with it, size the cartridge to headspace off the shoulder not the belt if that's possible.

Laurie
 
Laurie
I agree with most of what you wrote. However, in my opinion the need for a short case to use a short stiff action is unfounded and another gizmo in precision shooting unless the shooter chooses or has to use a repeater. I have an old Hart B/R action (single shot-short and stiff) very similiar to the Rem 700 short action (or 40x) as far as port size and ejection point and it will eject a 300 Win, 7mm Rem, 7mm Wby, 7x61 S&H, 308 Norma and 30-338 (all throated to accept the long vld bullets), but the 300 Wby cartridge is too long.
I don't or never had a 300 H&H, but I headspace the 22 hornet (rimmed case) off the shoulder and it only has a 5 deg 38' shoulder much less than the 300 H&H (8 deg 30') but it still produces a datum line.
 
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_thread/thread/f46ed0f98c76c145/bf4df619b85b510b?hl=engroup:rec.guns+author:bart#bf4df619b85b510b

Bart Bobbitt: When the 30 caliber belted cases were king of the 1000 yard prone
matches, folks got best accuracy with new cases headspacing on the
belt. Accuracy was based on shooting at least 20 shot strings; 25 was
common. New cases in a minimum SAAMI chamber shot Sierra Match Kings
no worse than 7 inches at 1000 yards. Which means sometimes a 5-shot
group would be 3 to 4 inches and a 10-shot group sometimes in the 4 to
6 inch range. ....

Who is Bart Bobbitt?
He came to my attention in 1997:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_thread/thread/88bef3bfe724b497/dcd9a8bf2c3f8c52?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=group:rec.guns#dcd9a8bf2c3f8c52
 

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