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Bart's bullets vs. Berger for 6BR

newbieshooter said:
+1 Looks like we are all in agreement!


Yep, I gave Bruce a batch of 103 Hammers 3 weeks before the match - some of the first 103s you made back in 2019. Had just enough to give Bruce to get him thru the match :)


This record was shot with Barts 105s in April 2019 in windy Sacramento. I don't recall which 105s.
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Well I am NOT in agreement! Every group @SPJ shoots needs 20% added to it just for general principles....... :cool:
 
marchx said:
It seems there are only 2 places online which can send me Bart's bullets to Europe- bulletcentral and reloadinginternational. It's quite funny- bullets are in the whole UE an unregulated item. A French guy can order a box of bullets in Germany and nobody cares. You get it delivered per post.
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I'd assume it's due to US export regulations. ITAR regulates arms and ammo (among a bunch of other stuff - can't mail an aircraft carrier, for instance) going from the US to most countries other than Canada, Mexico, and the UK.
 
I have Barts 105gr Hammers and they are very dimensionally consistent. Berger is still the most consistent mass produced commercial bullet but not as good as Barts custom bullets. Berger used to be nearly as consistent as any custom bullet, but ever since about the time they really went mainstream and started making all the different models of bullets, they took a little dive. Especially in lot to lot consistency.

However, sorted Bergers may shoot better. Would just have to try them both. Berger and many custom target bullet makers use the same J4 jacket. Plus people are still out there winning competitions and setting world records with Berger so we can’t turn a blind eye to that fact.
 
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Ledd Slinger said:
I have Barts 105gr Hammers and they are very dimensionally consistent. Berger is still the most consistent mass produced commercial bullet but not as good as Barts custom bullets. Berger used to be nearly as consistent as any custom bullet, but ever since about the time they really went mainstream and started making all the different models of bullets, they took a little dive. Especially in lot to lot consistency.

However, sorted Bergers may shoot better. Would just have to try them both. Berger and custom target bullet makers all use the same J4 jacket. Plus people are still out there winning competitions and setting world records with Berger so we can’t turn a blind eye to that fact.
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When Berger quit making their bullets by hand they became more inconsistent. A guy pulling a lever can feel when something isn't right and then reject that bullet. A machine doesn't know....

I am also not sure Berger's are the most consistent mass produced commercial bullet out there. I have measured Sierra Matchkings that were as consistent as Barts. Sadly these Matchkings shot like crap, at least from a LR BR perspective.

The 215 grain 30 cal sorted Berger's I have shot are excellent. But they do take a lot of sorting......
 
INTJ said:
When Berger quit making their bullets by hand they became more inconsistent. A guy pulling a lever can feel when something isn't right and then reject that bullet. A machine doesn't know....

I am also not sure Berger's are the most consistent mass produced commercial bullet out there. I have measured Sierra Matchkings that were as consistent as Barts. Sadly these Matchkings shot like crap, at least from a LR BR perspective.

The 215 grain 30 cal sorted Berger's I have shot are excellent. But they do take a lot of sorting......
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Yeah I measured some of the newer high BC Sierra 230gr in 308 cal. I was surprised at the dimensional consistency. But when tested side by side with 230gr Bergers pulled straight from the box (no sorting), every powder type, charge weight, and seating depth identical for both bullets in every test, the Berger always seems to edge out the Sierra with accuracy. Go figure...

I also pull Berger 250gr in 338 straight from the box with no sorting on a hunting rifle that will consistently put up groups in the 2 inch range at 871 yards with the occasional group under 2 inches and occasional group a hair over 3 inches. And it will do that with many different charge weights. Not sure how much better I could do considering the rifle only wears a 4-24x scope. I see no reason to sort when they shoot like that so I don’t bother. Even if custom bullet makers had a good extremely consistent 33 cal bullet available, or I sorted the Berger 250gr bullets, I highly doubt I could shoot the rifle any better unless I reconfigured the whole rifle as a LR BR setup and put a high power optic on it.
 
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Ledd Slinger said:
Yeah I measured some of the newer high BC Sierra 230gr in 308 cal. I was surprised at the dimensional consistency. But when tested side by side with 230gr Bergers pulled straight from the box (no sorting), every powder type, charge weight, and seating depth identical for both bullets in every test, the Berger always seems to edge out the Sierra with accuracy. Go figure...

I also pull Berger 250gr in 338 straight from the box with no sorting on a hunting rifle that will consistently put up groups in the 2 inch range at 871 yards with the occasional group under 2 inches and occasional group a hair over 3 inches. And it will do that with many different charge weights. Not sure how much better I could do considering the rifle only wears a 4-24x scope. I see no reason to sort when they shoot like that so I don’t bother. Even if custom bullet makers had a good extremely consistent 33 cal bullet available, or I sorted the Berger 250gr bullets, I highly doubt I could shoot the rifle any better unless I reconfigured the whole rifle as a LR BR setup and put a high power optic on it.
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I tried the Berger 250s in my 33-28 Nosler. It hated them. I was very surprised. However, that barrel does like 250 grain Accubonds. I sort the Accubonds (I sort all my bullets) and I REALLY like the terminal performance of Accubonds. However, ABs have to be one of the most inconsistent bullets made.
 
INTJ said:
I tried the Berger 250s in my 33-28 Nosler. It hated them. I was very surprised. However, that barrel does like 250 grain Accubonds. I sort the Accubonds (I sort all my bullets) and I REALLY like the terminal performance of Accubonds. However, ABs have to be one of the most inconsistent bullets made.
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My rifle is a 338-375 Ruger (more capacity than necked up 300 PRC) so similar case capacity as the Nosler. I only get the Berger 250 to shoot good with mid burn rate powders. H4350 and RL16 to be specific. Speeds just under or a little over 3000 fps in a 26” barrel depending on charge weight used. Also shoots extremely good down in the 2800 fps area. Get good speed with other slower powders but couldn’t find the accuracy.

I tried measuring Nosler Partition bullets once. So out of whack I didn’t even know where to start with grouping the bullets so I just gave up. Lol.

Bad thing about custom bullets we are discussing in this thread is the availability. Berger isn’t much better at the moment due to morons panic buying, but customs bullets are usually 6 months to a year out on orders. So if you don’t already have them on hand, best of luck to anyone trying find them before the next competition season starts.
 
Ledd Slinger said:
My rifle is a 338-375 Ruger (more capacity than necked up 300 PRC) so similar case capacity as the Nosler. I only get the Berger 250 to shoot good with mid burn rate powders. H4350 and RL16 to be specific. Speeds just under or a little over 3000 fps in a 26” barrel depending on charge weight used. Also shoots extremely good down in the 2800 fps area. Get good speed with other slower powders but couldn’t find the accuracy.

I tried measuring Nosler Partition bullets once. So out of whack I didn’t even know where to start with grouping the bullets so I just gave up. Lol.

Bad thing about custom bullets we are discussing in this thread is the availability. Berger isn’t much better at the moment due to morons panic buying, but customs bullets are usually 6 months to a year out on orders. So if you don’t already have them on hand, best of luck to anyone trying find them before the next competition season starts.
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That is interesting about the faster powders. I got up to 91 grains of H-1000 in my 32-28 and while I got good velocity, around 3000 fps, it didn't like it at all. I get 2825 with the 250 ABs. There is more velocity available, but there is no brake on this gun and it's close to 50 ft lbs of recoil, so 2825 is enough.

IIRC, the issue with the custom bullets makers is jackets. That said, I was able to get Vapor Trails. I had placed an order for Barts Hammers in the Spring but found 1000 from my fellow shooters. So when Barts wife called a month ago or so I cancelled my order. Since I still had enough for the next couple of seasons I figured I should let someone who doesn't have any get some.
 
After reading this thread it motivated me to try something as I currently have 6mm Berger 105 VLD, Berger 105 Hybrids and Barts 105 Gungnir on my reloading bench. So I decided to try a simple test. I weighed 25 each from the three boxes of 500 listed above. I dont have the exact data in front of me but the Barts standard deviation was by far the lowest. The VLD was next and the Berger 105 Hybrids was the worst and was the Hybrid SD was approx 2x of the Barts. The VLD was roughly in the middle of the two.

This is only weight and not any dimensional measurements but it does say something.
 
divingin said:
I'd assume it's due to US export regulations. ITAR regulates arms and ammo (among a bunch of other stuff - can't mail an aircraft carrier, for instance) going from the US to most countries other than Canada, Mexico, and the UK.
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It is. They changed up the US Munitions List a few years ago which made things a lot easier - basically putting most sporting guns/ammo under the domain of the Commerce Department rather than the State Department. It's still a pain to export, and a lot to ask of a one man shop.
 
To a degree, Berger is still living off the image of the old custom bullet days (and their tendency to throw money at good shooters). They make very good factory bullets, but they're still factory bullets. The popularity in disciplines like F class has more to do with the design of the the bullets they make (they have leaned heavily into high BC bullets) than the quality. It's very hard to out-design Berger in terms of BC and still have a bullet that will shoot.

Customs are going to get you another step up in accuracy/consistency. Think of bullets as the ceiling - you cannot shoot better than your bullets.

Side note on jackets - people might be surprised to know how many custom's *aren't* made with J4 jackets.
 
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