Barrel tuner / Muzzle brake combo - Any good?

[Biggabe]

Read an article on the RAS muzzle brake barrel tuner combo. Sounded pretty good but just wondered how may guys are actually using one. Thought about trying one on a 6 Dasher I have, would it be worth it or not. Don't see any pictures of rifles running them to amount to anything. What do you guys think? Gabe

 

[LRPV]

I use the Harrel's tuner brakes on mine. I like them and they help me. Some guys will tell you that if you can tune a load correctly that you don't need it. I struggle to get that last little bit from load tuning so I use the tuner and I like the results.

 

[Henryp]

They work. I use one load and tune the barrel to the load.

 

[GeorgeSpringer]

I use the RAS tuner/brake on a 6BR and would use one again. I put a RAS tuner on a 30BR but it shot so good without the tuner I use it for a muzzle cap now.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Tuners work, brakes work, but we have found that our 6 dashers shoot smallest at 1k with no muzzle devises at all.

 

[ergonsdad]

When properly installed and tuned a good barrel tuner will always reduce the group size. The only exception is if the rifle that is shooting such small groups that you can't measure the improvement The RAS tuners have won local, regional, national and international matches. Those who haven't seen improvements either haven't installed the tuner properly or haven't tuned it properly. Tuning requires very small changes in the Tuning Ring location to find the desired sweet spot. RAS has detailed tuning instructions on their web site www.rastuners.com. They also have videos of the tuning process on Facebook and You Tube(search for rifle accuracy systems,llc.)

The larger RAS TB150 & 250 were developed for heavy barreled competition rifles. The new RAS AR15/10 Mk III series were developed for the lighter barreled rifles like the typical sporting rifle and the AR family of rifles.

Properly tuned a rifle should show between 40-80% reduction in group size. The tuner systems that incorporate a muzzle brake also provide substantial reduction in recoil. There are significant differences between many of the tuner systems which accounts the ease in tuning and the amount of improvement.

The 22RF competition shooter discovered that without a tuner they couldn't be competitive and that is spreading to other forms of competition. Long range shooters have found the benefits improved accuracy by tuning. 1,000 yard shots are a lot easier with a tuner.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

You cant make a bad barrel any better with a tuner but you can sure make a good barrel bad with one! That being said if you have a good barrel you can use the tuner to tweak in a load that may not be right for that day. At longer ranges not sure how you can tweak it without a sighter target and instant feedback. We use them a lot in short range tho

 

[Alex Wheeler]

When properly installed and tuned a good barrel tuner will always reduce the group size. The only exception is if the rifle that is shooting such small groups that you can't measure the improvement The RAS tuners have won local, regional, national and international matches. Those who haven't seen improvements either haven't installed the tuner properly or haven't tuned it properly. Tuning requires very small changes in the Tuning Ring location to find the desired sweet spot. RAS has detailed tuning instructions on their web site www.rastuners.com. They also have videos of the tuning process on Facebook and You Tube(search for rifle accuracy systems,llc.)

The larger RAS TB150 & 250 were developed for heavy barreled competition rifles. The new RAS AR15/10 Mk III series were developed for the lighter barreled rifles like the typical sporting rifle and the AR family of rifles.

Properly tuned a rifle should show between 40-80% reduction in group size. The tuner systems that incorporate a muzzle brake also provide substantial reduction in recoil. There are significant differences between many of the tuner systems which accounts the ease in tuning and the amount of improvement.

The 22RF competition shooter discovered that without a tuner they couldn't be competitive and that is spreading to other forms of competition. Long range shooters have found the benefits improved accuracy by tuning. 1,000 yard shots are a lot easier with a tuner.

There is no way you can make that statement. Every combination is different. When a brake or tuner is added to the barrel is now acts like a longer barrel. This changes the node point. If you are trying to get a barrel to compensate for a certain distance the node point is important. The tuner moves that point forward. Rimfires also use bloop tubes which have the same effect. Trust me, if brakes or tuners made our rifles shoot smaller at 1k they would be on every rifle on the line.

 

[ergonsdad]

Rifle accuracy is all about managing the barrel vibrations. We do that by properly installing good barrels in good action and so forth. We also do that by developing accurate loads, We do that by properly setting up the rifle on the bench. After all that, the tuner system is our last means to manage the vibrations. The barrel vibration and it harmonics are the net result many different forces acting on the rifle system at different times. From the sear releasing to the bullet hitting the rifling. Each rifle system is different but the physics of the systems are the same. There is always some tuning left to be done BUT in a very good rifle it may be to small to measure. Tuning isn't a fix for a bad rifle it can just make somewhat better but it is still a bad rifle. The very nature of tuning means that at a given position of the Tuning Ring the group is going to change. Sometimes it get larger and sometimes it gets smaller, that is why it is called tuning.

The location of the nodal point is not the major factor that influences accuracy. Experimental data has shown that the major influence on accuracy is the timing of the bullet leaving the muzzle to minimize the radial velocity that throws the bullet off the point of aim. Another way of putting this is that the muzzle is moving up and down, we want the bullet to exit the muzzle when the barrel stops to change direction. This is 180 degrees out of phase with the motion crossing the center-line of the bore. The reason tuning work so well and requires such small changes is that it is a very small window when the muzzle changes direction.

As I said earlier if properly installed and tuned a tuner can reduce group sizes.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Of course the nodal point matters. It effects the way the barrel vibrates. How would the modes look if the nodal point was at the muzzle vs in the middle off the barrel? The preferred timing for bullet release is just before a stoppped muzzle in the up direction. I speak strictly of long range. Check this out http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/tuning_a_barrel.htm
I believe you are the designer of the RAS, correct? Not knocking the product, and I believe it has its place. We have even seen that a brake will effect 1000 yard groups very slightly. Not much, but enough that we dont use them anymore. And they are installed straight. Its hard to know for sure, but I figured it moved the nodal point forward which hurt compensation at long range. I dont believe a tuner like Cortinas which doesnt add mass to the barrel would have this negative effect.

 

[RDavies]

Back to the OPs question.
Yes, I do use a RAS tuner brake and will buy more if I get any more 1000yd LG barrels.
The brake reduced the recoil of my 284 Shehane so it feels the same as shooting an unbraked 6BR or 6 Dasher. (except it is noisier and has more blast). I am able to shoot this rifle free recoil just the same as I do with a 6Dasher barrel in it. Before I had the rifle fitted to my 284 Shehane, it was on a 6 Dasher barrel and I found it reduced recoil enough that it stopped upsetting the bags enough that I did not often have to move the joystick to steer the rifle back into position.
As for the tuner ring on it, I was able to consistently shrink and grow groups back and forth noticeably. I had a load which shot well without the brake, but when I put the brake on it, I was able to fine tune it for the particular conditions on the day. I like having a tuner so that I can load of ammo and if the barrel starts to go slightly out of tune, I give the tuner a slight tweek to bring accuracy back in, so don't have a pile well prepped ammo I have to then pull apart again.

 

[Biggabe]

I also have a 6 PPC. Obviously it will be shot in the 100 to 200 yard range versus the Dasher which is shot at much longer distances. The PPC shoots very well with good groups. A brake wouldn't be needed on it but I guess anything done to reduce recoil is a plus, do you gain a bigger advantage or none at all shooting short range or long with a tuner. I guess it boils down to does the added expense justify the results. Thanks.

 

[RDavies]

Is this rifle being used at a range or for varminting? Something to think about if it will be shot mainly at the range is some ranges might not like muzzle brakes being used. If it is for varmint hunting, then a brake will more than likely allow you to see your bullet hits or misses. If you want to do any sort of short range competition you will not be allowed to use muzzle brakes.
Personally, if they were allowed, I would use muzzle brakes for nearly everything, but as it is, I can only use them for 1000yd BR and hunting.

 

[johara1]

I can see the tuner at short range, They don't weigh powder to .01 nor do they trim and point bullets, and they don't know what ES. or SD. is and sure don't anneal and for the most part they don't pre load. A tuner is a crutch but it works for those that can't do the things necessary to get the smallest groups short range. On the other hand long range you don't see them that often and mostly only for a year. Makes the gun harder to balance, does nothing to make it shoot better at a 1000. If you tuned your loads for the best performance no tuner will make it better, If can shoot sub .1 groups with ES in the single digits @ 100 and shoot in 2"@ 1000 What can the tuner do? The conditions a worth more than that. I sure shot a lot of 4 and 1's out there 4 were under an inch and 1 opened it up to a 2" How can you tune what you can't see. Jim O'Hara

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I have a pretty extensive background with both using and making tuners. IME, what tuners do is allow you to get the best out of a given load/rifle combination. Yardage doesn't matter from this perspective. They won't make a perfectly tuned rifle/load shoot smaller, but due to a wider tune window relative to conditions, they will help make it agg better. All guns go through some degree of tune change due to conditions...some more than others. A tuner smooths out the extremes here and helps keep the gun in tune longer.
I don't see tuners as a crutch, but rather a tool to maintain tune with and widen tune windows. Long range does make adjusting one harder if sighters can't be seen or used...but you still have the wider tune window working for you. Some top shooters never move their tuner once set. I feel like that leaves a huge benefit of tuners on the table, but is still beneficial. Using that method would be no different than no tuner at all, except the gun will maintain tune longer.


Where sighters are allowed and can be utilized, I typically only move the tuner on the first warm-up target and rarely need to touch it after that...but can and will if conditions change enough to affect tune.


No matter the care taken in building the best possible ammo, they still go out of tune to some degree. That's just physics. Tuners give you a tool with which you can keep up with tune at the bench and on the firing line, if rules permit its practicality....And if not, they still widen tune windows.


Positive compensation is a whole 'nother chapter in itself.


Bottom line..tuners are simple to use and do what you are reading. In virtually every case where tuners don't provide good results it is because the user makes too large of adjustments. Adjustments are very small but do make a distinct difference.


The best advice I can give anyone that tests a tuner is to be very, very methodical and to get their info from the person or company that builds their particular tuner. There are simply many different designs and other factors that make information relative to a given tuner on a given gun, irrelevant if you're using another tuner and/or on a different gun. I do think a general worksheet can be made using tuner weight, location relative to the muzzle, and barrel stiffness to chart approximate necessary tuner travel to work within is doable. Generically stating that one should turn a tuner "1/4 turn" is likely wrong unless it's is directly relative to a specific tuner on a specific barrel contour and length..i.e...stiffness. But a lot of that goes on and leads people down the wrong path from the get go.---Mike Ezell

 

[savagedasher]

They work. I use one load and tune the barrel to the load.

+ 1
I have 3 different guns all shooting the same load.
One holds the club record at 300yds all 4 ends.
the other holds the record at 600yds 1.037
1000 yds my 11 year old won total 20 shot ag
All were with one load and the barrel tuned to the load. Larry

 

[JarheadAZ]

My experience is very similar to G&G's, having done some work with homemade tuners on a .260. They will tune down to very tiny groups, and they will also go out of tune fairly easily.

In the end, I decided my need wasn't worth the extra effort and bore wear; mainly because I was aging out of the competitive lifestyle.

My first tuner used a lot of mass, and as G&G indicated, it was very easy to over-adjust.

My second one was much simpler and less massive, with a length of bicycle inner tube stretched over the barrel near the (.875" diameter) muzzle, a 1" i.d. hardware nut threaded onto the rubber sleeve, and a drop or two of 'personal lube' between the two. The adjustment range was greater, and the entire assembly could be removed leaving no evidence on the barrel afterward.

Greg

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

They work. I use one load and tune the barrel to the load.

+ 1
I have 3 different guns all shooting the same load.
One holds the club record at 300yds all 4 ends.
the other holds the record at 600yds 1.037
1000 yds my 11 year old won total 20 shot ag
All were with one load and the barrel tuned to the load. Larry

That is certainly true about tuners but with one caveat, IME. That being that the tuner can only get whatever the load and rifle are capable of, from it. In other words, it won't necessarily make it where you can simply throw any powder, charge, and bullet in and get it to shoot great...only as good as that load can shoot. There are exceptions to this and I've done it..but with a known good load for a given cartridge, such as 29.0 grains of n133 in a ppc.


But they won't fix a bad barrel, bad bullet, or make any tuned load that won't shoot well without a tuner, shoot. Like I said in my previous post though, a tuner will let you easily get the best that the load and rifle have in it, from it..and maintain it through both a wider tune window and the ability to adjust the tuner when needed.


In most every case, there is still load development to get to full accuracy potential. In fact, what I do is I work up a load like normal, but with the tuner on the barrel. I never touch the tuner until the gun and load are shooting good. From that point, I can stay with the same load and make any tune changes with just the tuner, as conditions change. It really is even simpler than it sounds in use.


If someone brings me a good rifle that has already been tuned to shoot well, I can teach a 5 year old to use a tuner to maintain peak tune in 30 minutes or less after installing the tuner.More like 10 minutes, really, in good conditions.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

My pet load in a Dasher with 105 hybrids jumped .022 H4350 36.6 with fully prepped brass Internal case capacity with .002 difference or less. Two shot and clean . Adjusting the tuner off what the target was telling me. The 4th two shots was a small one hole. and repeated the cleaning process. Total of 12 shots. Next day shot it at 1018 YD gong match and won . Proofed it after the match on paper had less then 2 '' of vertical. My thoughts is if it won't shoot at 100 it wont get better at 1000.
Mike and Henry and a very few other understand what tuners can do. Larry

Thanks Larry! I guess the best testimony I can give anyone in regard to tuners is that I have not since 2008, and will not ever shoot in a match without one, again. It is easy to see how some people get mixed results though, with so much conflicting information about them and how to use them. For the most part, I refrain from telling anyone that they are wrong about how to go about adjusting one due to the many variables such as tuner weight, thread pitch, and barrel stiffness. I will say that with my tuner on a typical BR contour and length barrel, you can clearly see on the target, adjustments of .001" or less tuner travel. So, VERY SMALL adjustments make a difference. If someone says they need to move their tuner 1/4 of a turn, I skeptically accept that they know what they are doing. That's a small part of why my tuner is designed so that the threads are hidden. I believe that the human mind assumes large adjustments are needed if the can see an inch or more of threads. I've never dealt with a tuner that wouldn't be just as functional if its range of movement were constrained to a single revolution or less...Often much less. This is by far the most common mistake people make with tuners. The people that I know that use tuners successfully all say that they can see very small adjustments on target. How small depends on things that I have already mentioned, including tuner weight, thread pitch and barrel stiffness.--Mike

 

[johara1]

It's funny but my numbers are by far smaller than those mentioned and not at a club shoot. i had contacted a smith that makes tuners and i was told it would not help. Tuners evolved from rim fire where you can't adjust the load. It seems that they will help if you don't want to adjust your load. If you want a cheap tuner to try, drill and tap for set screws on a brake and screw away……. How can you tune a one hole group at 100 that are in the mid zeros? I think a good barrel and bullets is the answer. I think i'm going back to nothing hanging on the end…….. jim