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Barrel Life?

KevinThomas said:
IMR4895 in the 168 loads, and IMR4350 in the 210 loads. Same chemical make up, same amount of energy per grain, same flame temps generated for both
I don't agree with this at all.
One these powders is significantly faster than the other for exactly the reasons implied as being the 'same'.
Lighter bullets, while quicker, are pushed by faster burning/hotter powders, with sharper pressure peaks.
Heavier bullets are pushed with the coolest of powders, much of it burning further down the bore, producing wider pressure curves.

I don't think scientific testing would show much difference without picking very narrow qualifiers & indicators. JMO
 
mikecr,

Actually, that's precisely why I choose those powders to use as an example; chemically, they are virtually identical. They (as well as the rest of the IMR line) all have the same energy per grain of powder; roughly 212 ft.lbs. per grain, or about 178 ft.lbs. per grain if you account for water content. They are, quite literally, the same powder. The difference in burning rate is controlled entirely by powder geometry and deterrant coatings added in the final stages of production. Powder geometry alone can control the progressive/digressive or neutral burning of a given powder, just depending on how it's extruded. It comes down to surface area of each kernel, and that can be drastically altered by the length and diameter, as well as whether the kernel is perforated with one or more holes throughout its length. Complex stuff, but yeah, they're chemically identical for all intents and purposes, and run very close to the same flame temps during combustion. This goes for IMR4227 to IMR7828, anf everything in between.
 
BigDMT said:
Nomad47 said:
While that is true, Kevin, picture this extreme. . . . Take a 1:2 twist barrel and a 1:30 twist barrel. Shoot the same identical load in both. Do you think the pressure therefore the heat will be the same in both?

Well no, but that's not realistic at all.

Agreed that is not realistic. But my point is if there is a difference between a 2 twist and a 30 twist, then there is a difference between a 10 and a 14 twist. Granted, it would be very, very slight.

A few years ago, I owned a 12 twist Savage 22-250. I then had a 9 twist made in the same cartridge. When I shot the 12 twist load in the 9 twist I had slight pressure signs. And when I brought this up with the manufacturer of the 9 twist, he said it was due to the faster twist.
 
sleepygator said:
JRS said:
[br]
<sarcasm> How can you say that? I had a 6.5-284 with an 8" twist that burned out in 800 rounds. My .222 with a 14" twist has over 4000 rounds and still shoots great. ::) </sarcasm>

Believe "barrel life" is directly proportioinal to the amount of powder, type of powder, and how much time in between shots.

Comparing a 223 with a x284 case???????
 
Nomad47,

Not to be indelicate, but your barrelmaker was grabbing at straws for that explanation. There were other differences within those barrels that actually accounted for the changes in pressure that you saw. Aspect ratio, groove depth, bore diameter, surface finish, who knows. But it wasn't the twist, per se. As I said, differences in twist accounts for something on the order of one half of one percent where pressures are concerened. Plenty of examples and studies by the military to show this conclusively and beyond any doubt.

As for barrel life (the original topic here), I've seen the heavier vs. lighter bullets perform this way in hundreds of barrels, all fired under very controlled laboratory conditions. With a full shooting schedule, it normally took me about three-four weeks to wear out a barrel, from freashly threaded and chambered, to shot out and in need of replacement. The pattern was always the same with a given cartridge (say, a 308 Win); lighter bullets and the barrels lasted longer, heavier bullets and you had a lower round count when the barrels gave up the ghost. Time, after time, after time.
 
Kevin, Could that be because typically, the longer, heavier bullets have more bearing surface? More surface contact with the bore should equate to higher friction. Im sure that the tighter twist barrels wear out quicker with the combination of the heavier bullets time inside of the barrel, and also greater friction to the barrel surface due to increased bullet bearing surface contact.......maybe
Derek
 
dmoran said:
pmarauder -

My actual experience differ greatly then your own redundant rationalized questions and input.
If you can prove that a faster twist barrel will wear faster then a slow twist barrel, shooting the exact same ammo, I will want to see that proof!!!

The difference as I know it to longer/heavier bullets to shorter/lighter bullets is the time and force needed to engrave them into the rifling.
Where it takes more force to get the longer bullets engaged entirely into the barrel, but once in, they go down the extent of a barrel with very similar force.
Differences in twist rates bare miniscule effects, as Kevin and others have stated.

I peeve theorem of speculated posts.
They spread an injustice of truth like a cancer.

Donovan

Relax man.... I started off my sentence with a simple honest QUESTION. But go ahead and show everyone in this post how you respond to a guy asking Kevin a harmless bearing surface question.
I did not state that this was absolute fact. Perhaps your attitude is the cancer you are referring to.
 
Donovan,
I have talked to you on the phone before, and you and Derek are very much alike, I think you would really like him, he is very soft spoken, and very eager to learn, more so than just about anyone I have ever met, he is very smart and asked lots of questions, and is a awesome shot and learner and very humble, he kicked my ass this year on a daily basis yet still asked me questions and humbly gave me answers, just saying my friend.
Wayne.
 
pmarauder said:
Kevin, Could that be because typically, the longer, heavier bullets have more bearing surface? More surface contact with the bore should equate to higher friction. I'm sure that the tighter twist barrels wear out quicker with the combination of the heavier bullets time inside of the barrel, and also greater friction to the barrel surface due to increased bullet bearing surface contact.......maybe
Derek

I saw your question and understand that it was a question. While I certainly don't have all of the answers, your inquiry is food for thought.

While I do not agree with the friction idea you bring up and here is maybe something that will explain my viewpoint. I have a 30BR chambered rifle, this rifle has 6,258 ( I keep a log of every shot fired or at least the number of shots fired) shots down range. This barrel is just as accurate today and it was the day I shot it first. Now with that said I do not shoot a high BC bullet that has a long bearing surface, but I also have a 6PPC barrel for the same rifle that is done completely and accuracy has also fallen off to the point that it is "NOT" competitive any longer, that barrel has 917 rounds through it. Both of these barrels shoot FB bullets. If it is the friction that causes the barrel wear, why is one barrel ( the 6PPC) done at 900 rounds and the 30BR barrel with 6 times the rounds, and 6 times the friction, through it still going strong?

Now the twist rate is a little different but it is not 6 times different. If it was friction then the 30BR barrel should be done by now. Shouldn't it?

I am not saying that friction is not a contributing factor---I do not know if it is or not. I do believe that if it were a contributing factor it is very small in the scheme of barrel wear.

Roland
 
A good example of short light bullets/ slow twist versus long heavy bullets/ fast twist is to compare the 308 with the 30BR.

30BR with 110 to 118 gr. bullets & 17 or 18 twist barrels have a life expectancy of around 7000.

308 with 150 to ? bullets & 1-10 or 1-11 twist barrels have a record of around 4000 maximum.

I know my 14 twist 6BR's outlast my 8 twists.
 
pmarauder,

No, I don't think it does, though I've never done any sort of testing specifically with that question in mind. Bottom line, though, is that we know (in most cases) friction isn't really the source for barrel damage. Somewhere earlier I stated that if you scope a shot out barrel, you'll find that 85-90% of it looks brand new, with the remainder, that portion directly ahead of the chamber, being the only area that's truly damaged. Setting a barrel back and rechambering it to a point where you eliminate the eroded portion of the throat usually gives you excellent performance again. If it were truly a question of friction, that damage should (yeah, I'm theorizing here) extend through the length of the barrel. It's those hot gases and high temps that do the damage, and that's where they're at their worst.

I may not have made this clear, but several other posters have touched on the source for this, and no doubt why we see so much more damage with heavy bullets than lighter ones. All comes back to basic physics; inertia. The heavier bullets simply take more time to get them moving within the bore, compared to their lighter counterparts. I believe it's that extra dwell time, with all those supercharged hot gases working on the throat area that gives us the erosion we see here. Lighter bullets just get out of the way faster, quickly creating much moire bore surface area that the gases can act upon. Talking about some very brief time differentials here, but at 60,000 psi, things happen pretty quickly.
 
The great, experienced, and knowledgeable Gale McMillan wrote a number of articles about this on different occasions. I would imagine a google search would revive them. You might also research Border Barrels for more information. As Gale McMillan has stated over and over,"barrel erosion (wear) is caused by the hot flame starting at the throat, and extending as far as 8" into the length of the barrel".
 
The high temperature and pressure in the throat combined with the atmosphere created by the powder's burning causes an extremely thin layer to form on the surface of the barrel, in and just forward of the throat. This layer is like glass on top of mud (the more ductile material that it overlays). As pressure increases during firing, the base metal is able to expand and contract without cracking, but the much less elastic layer on top cannot. Minute cracks form, and from that point, the edges of the cracks become sites that are eroded by high velocity gas, and particles. As the process continues the surface will be divided into little sections of uncracked surface surrounded by circumferential and longitudinal cracks, that can become slightly tilted, sort of like the segments of a concrete highway. This causes a slight reduction of the inside diameter of the barrel in the area that it occurs. There is also an increase in the rate of jacket fouling that will require more frequent and laborious cleaning. At that point, a decision may be made to replace the barrel. For a given caliber, if powders that have lower peak flame temperatures are used, and the spacing between shots is carefully controlled, barrel life will be extended.l On the other hand, if you use a hot burning powder, very high pressure loads, and shoot long fast strings, allowing no time for cooling between shots, barrel life will be shortened. I believe that the reason that David Tubb reports longer barrel life by shooting bullets coated with a fine abrasive on a fixed schedule, throughout a barrel's life, is that when he does so, he is removing the glass hard layer in its very early stages, when it is only a few molecules thick, before it can cause problems. This is not to say that I would take this approach for benchrest competition, but there are many other applications where it might have merit.
 
1) Take two nearly identical brass cases and load them with the exact same powder charges, will the case with the longer neck like a 6.5x55 at .3099" have a longer barrel life than the shorter necked case like a 6.5/284 at .2642"?

2) Who has a chart with Temperature of Explosion rankings of all the various powders?

Bronc
 
QuickLoad assigns caloric energy of powders.
IN Kj/Kg:
Accurate 5744 => 4713 Hodgdon 4198 =>3860 IMR 4350 =>3760 VV N550 =>4050
Accurate 1680 => 4018 Hodgdon 322 =>4000 IMR 4831 =>3720 VV N165 =>3500
Accurate 2015 => 3754 H Benchmark =>3900 IMR 7828 =>3850 VV N560 =>4020
Accurate 2230 => 3710 Hodgdon 4895 =>4060 IMR 7828 SSC =>3850 VV N170 =>3700
Accurate 2460 => 3690 Hodgdon 335 =>3980 Norma 200 =>3850 VV N570 =>3950
Accurate 2495 => 3810 Hodgdon Varget =>4050 Norma 201 =>3980 VV 24N41 =>3785
Accurate 4064 => 3700 Hodgdon BL-C2 =>3990 Norma 202 =>3940 VV 20N29 =>3580
Accurate 2520 => 3700 Hodgdon 380 =>3970 Norma 203 old =>3900 Win 748 =>3840
Accurate 2700 => 3545 Hodgdon 414 =>3880 Norma 203B =>3990 Win 760 =>3880
Accurate 4100 => 3840 Hodgdon Hy100v =>3545 Norma URP =>3920 Win Supreme =>3750
Accurate 4350 => 3790 Hodgdon 4350 =>3760 Norma 204 =>3950 Win WXR =>3980
Accurate 3100 => 3550 Hodgdon 4831 =>3870 Norma MRP =>4020
Acc MAGPRO => 3880 Hodgdon 4831 SC =>3870 Norma MRP-2 =>3830
Accurate 8700 => 3460 Hodgdon 1000 =>3630 Ramshot X-Term =>3950
Alliant Rel-7 => 3910 Retumbo =>3710 Ramshot TAC =>3950
Alliant AR-Comp => 3740 Hodgdon 870 =>3810 Ramshot BigGame =>3920
Alliant 10x => 4000 Hodgdon US869 =>3700 Ramshot Hunter =>3910
Alliant Rel-12 => 3830 Hodgdon 50BMG =>4010 Ramshot Magnum =>3775
Alliant Rel-15 => 3990 IMR 4198 =>3910 VV N133 =>3630
Alliant Rel-17 => 3990 IMR 3031 =>3880 VV N530 =>4100
Alliant Rel-19 => 3980 IMR 8208 XBR =>3920 VV N135 =>3590
Alliant Rel-22 => 3990 IMR 4064 =>3880 VV N140 =>3720
Alliant Rel-25 => 3810 IMR 4895 =>4080 VV N540 =>4100
Alliant Rel-33 => 3900 IMR 4320 =>3890 VV N150 =>3780
Alliant Rel-50 => 3820 IMR 4007 SSC =>3935 VV N160 =>3620

I've been applying these numbers successfully for years in barrel life predictions, and I'll suggest that barrel life is different from I4895-vs-4350, all else equal.
This because 4895 IS hotter faster than 4350.
Look at how cool H1000 is. This is the reason the larger 6CM provides better barrel life than a 6XC with other powders.
 
I find this to be a very good discussion, but in the end Barrel Life is going to be what it is. Some cartridges will always get better life than others. In competition shooting that is understood, and even those barrels with usually good life, competition will change that.

In my F-Class rifle I shoot the 6.5X47 Lapua, so I will use it as an example. This cartridge if you read right here on Accurate Shooting is getting very good barrel life. Some I have read say they are getting in excess of 2,500 rounds or so. The discipline of F-Class shooting is in my experience a barrel killer. I also am of the belief that the biggest doom of barrels is heat, In a given Long Range F-Class match in a relay you are given somewhere around 30 minutes to shoot your sighters and shots for record. In almost all of the matches I shoot it is 33 minutes to prepare, shoot your sighters and shots for record. I usually shoot 6 to 10 sighter shots and then my 20 shots for score. I also don't use that 33 minutes and do not believe it would help one bit with barrel life if I did, I shoot all of my shots in 5 to 5 1/2 minutes. I am not worried about barrel life, it is a competition, I am trying my best to shoot a condition if at all possible and to score as well as I can. Now sometimes in real twitchy conditions of course you have to know when not to shoot as much as you know when to shoot.

My barrels get so hot that no one is going to touch it. Is this costing me barrel life? Of course it is, and I know and accept that as one of the costs of admission to shoot. Right now that f-Class rifle has a very well scoring Broughton Barrel that has 1,125 bullets down the bore. It is showing enough of a down trend that for the next match I will install a New Kreiger that I have ready to go.

I have never had good luck with setting barrels back and rechambering them. Once again in my experience these set back barrels don't live nearly as long as they did the first time. So I am not going to waste the $250.00 I pay to have a barrel chambered on a well used one when it cost me the exact same money to Chamber a new one.

Roland
 

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