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Barrel life of a 223 Kreiger - 1:7.7 match barrel

DngBat7

Silver $$ Contributor
Just wondering what the barrel life is for a 223 rem ss Kreiger 1:7.7 twist barrel. I have one in my ar. Was considering if it is worth getting custom dies made seeing I have about 800rds down it. It has a cle chamber which is the other reason I was considering custom dies.

Cle chamber works fine with regular 223 rem dies, but every time I shoot it will keep reshaping the shoulder of my brass after I size. This the reason for many making custom dies from fired brass.

Or I should also ask if it’s worth getting custom dies made for ar15 at to begin with.

It’s an extremely accurate barrel and wanted to try to maximize it.
 
You made good choices. Just keep it to magazine length loads, and you'll be fine. Frank didn't design his chamber for long loaded 80s.

1) Barrel life at 1 MOA standard will be at least 4,000 rounds. If it is not hot powder, 5,000 rounds is normal. If you hit 5,000, you probably better have a tube on order.

2) You do not need custom dies to load ammunition that will do everything an AR-15 can do. Been there, done that. Neil Jones does great work, but it wasn't really necessary, having tested side-by-side.

3) I've shot NATO, Compass Lake, .223 SAAMI, true Wylde, and a Long Range .110 FB chamber. All of them shot really well with multiple of about 8 bullets I like(d) to use for various things at the time.

4) Lapua casings go INTO the chamber Lapua, and come out Winchester (or worse). Examine the operating mechanisms of the rifle for reasons why, and then quit worrying about how much your sizing dies is reshaping the brass. Shoot DECENT brass (Lake City), FL size it -0.003" minimum every time in a REGULAR die (not small base), and throw it away at 5 firings. Easy. Smart.

5) I agree with your ideas of maximizing it...but custom dies won't help that. To maximize life, A) tilt the powder can less, and (B) don't shoot more than 10-15 rounds at a time (say...2:00); (C) clean the barrel with as much care as you would a bolt gun, and don't let it go more than 100 rounds or so.

-Nate
 
I have a similar barrel in my F-TR match AR-15, but I got the barrel chambered by Krieger, it was called the 556 Match 10 years ago. It's actually a very tight chamber with a long leade for the 80gr bullets I used in it It was very tight. I used the Redding Small Base F/L S-type bushing die exclusively and it was great. Made High Master at mid-range with that rifle.

I believe the CLE chamber is a modified Wylde chamber that allows the use of 5.56NATO ammo in the rifle but has a tighter leade. So the chamber is a loose, but the neck is tight. That's probably why you see the shoulder change after firing. You might want to measure your fired case and adjust the sizing die to only push back the shoulder about .002 to .004 and not take it back to SAAMI, or whatever it's set at right now.
 
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I believe the CLE chamber is a modified Wylde chamber that allows the use of 5.56NATO ammo in the rifle but has a tighter leade. So the chamber is a loose, but the neck is tight. That's probably why you see the shoulder change after firing. You might want to measure your fired case and adjust the sizing die to only push back the shoulder about .002 to .004 and not take it back to SAAMI, or whatever it's set at right now.

Frank's chamber is not intended to be similar to a Wylde, nor is is a modification thereof. It was built around the 69 Sierra MatchKing loaded at magazine length because that was the only thing available at the time he designed the reamer. The CLE can be spikey with pressure with Ball ammo. Look to the freebore length for why, NOT the diameter...though out-of-concentricity ball rounds certainly don't help anything in a 0.2245" freebore.

Bill Wylde saw the usage of longer bullets, wanted a chamber that would still shoot ball ammo for practice, and designed accordingly.

The actual chamber reamer dimensions tell the story, along with bullet development chronology, and if a person wants to study it to that level, that person needs to study the reamers and speak in quantities, not qualities.

-Nate
 
Frank's chamber is not intended to be similar to a Wylde, nor is is a modification thereof. It was built around the 69 Sierra MatchKing loaded at magazine length because that was the only thing available at the time he designed the reamer. The CLE can be spikey with pressure with Ball ammo. Look to the freebore length for why, NOT the diameter...though out-of-concentricity ball rounds certainly don't help anything in a 0.2245" freebore.

Bill Wylde saw the usage of longer bullets, wanted a chamber that would still shoot ball ammo for practice, and designed accordingly.

The actual chamber reamer dimensions tell the story, along with bullet development chronology, and if a person wants to study it to that level, that person needs to study the reamers and speak in quantities, not qualities.

-Nate
Thanks for setting me straight.
 
Tough question on barrel life which will be affected by load and seating depth.

I have a Savage F/TR in .223. My best depth was about 6 off the lands and my best load was one on the lighter side. I shoot at 100 and 200 yards. The barrel lasted over 8500 rounds before the groups started to open up and another 400 or so before I was getting shotgun spreads in five shot non groups.

BTW- Savage would not sell another barrel to me.
 
Just wondering what the barrel life is for a 223 rem ss Kreiger 1:7.7 twist barrel. I have one in my ar. Was considering if it is worth getting custom dies made seeing I have about 800rds down it. It has a cle chamber which is the other reason I was considering custom dies.

Cle chamber works fine with regular 223 rem dies, but every time I shoot it will keep reshaping the shoulder of my brass after I size. This the reason for many making custom dies from fired brass.

Or I should also ask if it’s worth getting custom dies made for ar15 at to begin with.

It’s an extremely accurate barrel and wanted to try to maximize it.

Before I can answer this I have to ask;
What is the intended purpose of the rifle and what is your current skill level.

F Class?
FTR?
Typical 200/300/600 yards service rifle or Match Rifle?
Shooting off Tailgate at the farm?
Other?


If you are shooting a 20" Standard Service Rifle or longer than 20" Match Rifle Full Distance Cross the Course from the 200 yard standing slow fire, 200 yard sitting rapid fire stages, 300 prone rapid stages then out to 600 yards prone from a sling ( Full Course XTC ) and you are a Highmaster Caliber shooter consistently shooting 98% or better scores and you get average / typical life out of it you will most likely be happy up to at least,,, 4000 rounds or so before you see a drop-off in performance that costs you points that were not something you screwed up on. They will show up in 300 rapid and 600 slow prone stages 1st and will be noticed by reduced X count, using more of the 10 ring and the occasional 9 or worse that you called right down the pipe as perfectly executed shot

There are reports of some dying much sooner and some living much longer but those are mostly anomalies and not typical.

If you are shooting a 20" Standard Service Rifle Full Distance Cross the Course and you are a new shooter... Whole different story...
New shooters that are shooting in the Marksman to Expert score ranges could be shooting a Kreiger with over 10k rounds on it and would never know the difference as the shots that aren't 10's and X's are primarily caused by things they are not doing correctly

XTC Service Rifle is a skill / position game and 100% not an equipment race where money spent buys you points that move you up the results page.

Top shelf $400 - $500 barrels are considered by many to be money wasted on a beginner shooter as it takes at least a dozen matches and substantial practice with a decent coach helping you start off on the right foot. By the time the shooter has the skill ( 4000'ish rounds ) the barrel is going downhill holding them back.

The $220 White Oak button rifled Wilson barrels often shoot just as well as the expensive cut rifled Kreigers or Bartleins but typically only last half as long.
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/custom-post-ban-service-rifle-barrel.html
If you have a good coach and you are a fast learner you could be shooting Master Scores ( > 94% ) full course by the time you wear out your first $220 Wilson barrel. That is the time to decide if you want to spend double for the K or B cut rifled tube. The only thing the higher $$ cut rifled barrels typically buy you is time before you need to change the barrel.

Most of us use at least two identical uppers.
One for short range practice and one for full distance matches as described here. http://www.sw-hearing.com/konrad/thoughts/barrels.html

Offhand and sitting from 200 yards SR targets have a huge 10 ring ( 7" Diameter ) shots out of the 10 ring are on this target at 200 yards are 99% the shooters fault even with a kreiger with over 10K rounds thru it.

In this game with Service or Match Rifle Master / Highmaster isn't accomplished at the Reloading bench, It is accomplished on the range. You need large amounts of good ammo to improve as opposed to small amounts of ammo that took lots of time at the reloading bench being meticulously loaded.

If you are shooting Benchrest, F Class or FTR those are more equipment race games take far less time to shoot Master / HighMaster scores in so very little of all I typed above will apply.

So,
What discipline will you be shooting this barrel in?

No matter what Glad to have you shooting in organized events
George
 
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Before I can answer this I have to ask;
What is the intended purpose of the rifle and what is your current skill level.

F Class?
FTR?
Typical 200/300/600 yards service rifle or Match Rifle?
Shooting off Tailgate at the farm?
Other?


If you are shooting a 20" Standard Service Rifle or longer than 20" Match Rifle Full Distance Cross the Course from the 200 yard standing slow fire, 200 yard sitting rapid fire stages, 300 prone rapid stages then out to 600 yards prone from a sling ( Full Course XTC ) and you are a Highmaster Caliber shooter consistently shooting 98% or better scores and you get average / typical life out of it you will most likely be happy up to at least,,, 4000 rounds or so before you see a drop-off in performance that costs you points that were not something you screwed up on. They will show up in 300 rapid and 600 slow prone stages 1st and will be noticed by reduced X count, using more of the 10 ring and the occasional 9 or worse that you called right down the pipe as perfectly executed shot

There are reports of some dying much sooner and some living much longer but those are mostly anomalies and not typical.

If you are shooting a 20" Standard Service Rifle Full Distance Cross the Course and you are a new shooter... Whole different story...
New shooters that are shooting in the Marksman to Expert score ranges could be shooting a Kreiger with over 10k rounds on it and would never know the difference as the shots that aren't 10's and X's are primarily caused by things they are not doing correctly

XTC Service Rifle is a skill / position game and 100% not an equipment race where money spent buys you points that move you up the results page.

Top shelf $400 - $500 barrels are considered by many to be money wasted on a beginner shooter as it takes at least a dozen matches and substantial practice with a decent coach helping you start off on the right foot. By the time the shooter has the skill ( 4000'ish rounds ) the barrel is going downhill holding them back.

The $220 White Oak button rifled Wilson barrels often shoot just as well as the expensive cut rifled Kreigers or Bartleins but typically only last half as long.
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/custom-post-ban-service-rifle-barrel.html
If you have a good coach and you are a fast learner you could be shooting Master Scores ( > 94% ) full course by the time you wear out your first $220 Wilson barrel. That is the time to decide if you want to spend double for the K or B cut rifled tube. The only thing the higher $$ cut rifled barrels typically buy you is time before you need to change the barrel.

Most of us use at least two identical uppers.
One for short range practice and one for full distance matches as described here. http://www.sw-hearing.com/konrad/thoughts/barrels.html

Offhand and sitting from 200 yards SR targets have a huge 10 ring ( 7" Diameter ) shots out of the 10 ring are on this target at 200 yards are 99% the shooters fault even with a kreiger with over 10K rounds thru it.

In this game with Service or Match Rifle Master / Highmaster isn't accomplished at the Reloading bench, It is accomplished on the range. You need large amounts of good ammo to improve as opposed to small amounts of ammo that took lots of time at the reloading bench being meticulously loaded.

If you are shooting Benchrest, F Class or FTR those are more equipment race games take far less time to shoot Master / HighMaster scores in so very little of all I typed above will apply.

So,
What discipline will you be shooting this barrel in?

No matter what Glad to have you shooting in organized events
George
Thanks for the VERY descriptive post. I started shooting benchrest this last year. Obviously not with this rifle. This is just more a project of fun. When I got the barrel, I ran 69 grain black hills and was shocked a ar barrel could be so accurate. So Since reloading for benchrest, being addicted to loading accurate ammo, I wanted to see how far I could take it. For fun of course
 
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The cle chamber is by far my favorite. I have one with about 3500 on it and its still perfect. A 7.7 krieger that is chambered by compass lake. The rcbs black box AR series small base dies work perfect with lc brass
Thanks Dusty. Using those dies, since they are not for the cle chamber, every time you resize, does it not change your shoulder angle every time? Or does it not matter that much?
 
Ive never known it to even change shoulder angles- had no idea. They told me at cle it has their fb length and dia and was made for lc brass and 69smk. They never said anything about shoulder angles so evidently it doesnt matter cause ive never even noticed. Reload the same lc brass over and over
 

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