Barrel condition questions - with pictures

[jdbell2004]

First post, been a lurker for a long time. I have a Howa 1500 .308 20" BBL in and Bell and Carlson Medalist stock. I have somewhere in the realm of 500 hand loads through here and have never been able to get it to group as well as I'd like. I think a lot has to do with my reloading process but I got a Lyman Borecam and decided to take a look inside. The first couple pictures show the throat and a few inches forward before cleaning, after about 20 rounds. The next few are after many hours of cleaning with Hoppes 9, Shooters Choice Copper Solvent, Brake Parts Cleaner, a couple hundred patches, and a nylon brush. Once I got it down to bare metal, I started noticing some areas of concern. See below.


BEFORE CLEANING:

At this point I was worried about what looked like firecracking near the throat. There is some obvious copper fouling as well. So I got to work.


DURING CLEANING:

This is the throat after a few patches. The bore guide did not allow me to clean this area well.


About 4" from the muzzle is a 3" long section that I can't seem to get the powder/lead fouling off on the sides of the lands.


Things began to clean up pretty well, but, like I said, it took a long long time.

AFTER CLEANING:

I started noticing what looks like pitting a few inches from the muzzle. I've always used a coated single piece cleaning rod, brass jags, and nylon brushes. Solvent has never sat in the barrel longer than 10 minutes. However, I only recently started using a bore guide and lubricating the barrel after cleaning. It did sit for about 3 years when I didn't have time to shoot. I never noticed anything that looked like rust when cleaning though.

 

[jdbell2004]

I took a look at the crown. It looks good to me, but I'm no expert.


Then a quick look at the throat. It's definitely seen better days.


Is there any way I can salvage this barrel (improve the accuracy)? Or is it damaged to the point of needing to replace? I've run some metal polish (simichrome) through the bore to try to smooth out any imperfections but some seem too big to correct. I finished things off this afternoon with some Birchwood Casey Barricade and plan to shoot it here in the next few days.

 

[Cold Bore]

I have a Howa 1500 .308 20" BBL...

...........................

...I got a Lyman Borecam and decided to take a look inside.

..........

Or is it damaged to the point of needing to replace?

It had to be either a barrel maker or a gunsmith specializing in barrel replacements that invented this bore scope!

Never before have so many shooters been convinced their barrels need replacing.

It's a factory barrel, not a high end custom.

308 Win with 500 rounds through it? Hardly a worn out tube.

But like I said, with everybody buying a scope nowadays, there's a whole lotta barrel work gonna be lining up at the gunsmiths.

 

[XTR]

^^^ What he said.

These bore cams are going to sell the hell out of some barrels. (like there isn't already a long enough wait)

Want to see a chewed up 308 (that still shoots) I should figure out how to save pics from my Lyman of my F-TR barrel with 4700 though it.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I've been borescoping my barrels for a couple of years. Let me clue you in on a secret:

You can't tell how a barrel shoots with a borescope. Your barrel looks like a barely broken in 6 Dasher I have. That barrel is a 1/4 MOA or better barrel. My 2000 round (308) F/TR barrel looks far worse and still puts up cleans if I read the wind.

So, the barrel might not shoot, but it isn't from wear and firecracking. I saw what looked like a possible burr on the crown pictures. do a little exploring with the fuzzy end of a q-tip. If it catches any of the fuzz, have a competent smith recrown it.

I agree with the others that have posted- borescopes sell barrels.

Now, tell us how it shoots and what you want it to shoot like...

 

[jdbell2004]

Thanks for the input guys. This is the first barrel I've scoped and I have nothing to compare it to. I was surprised how dirty it was when I thought I had finished cleaning it. If nothing else, it's an awesome tool to aid in cleaning. I haven't had the barrel this clean since it was new, I'll load up some rounds I'm developing and see how she does. The last thing I want to do is spend more money on a new barrel, that's why I asked here.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Clean it to how it likes to shoot. That borescope may cost you an extra hundred rounds over that barrels life. When it quits shooting replace it. If the crown is in question recrown it. Put the borecam up on a shelf somewhere. You wouldnt believe how many actions are out of time and bad barrels have come about since christmas. Get out and Enjoy shooting! Thats one of the best factory barrels on the planet

 

[joshb]

^^^ What he said.

These bore cams are going to sell the hell out of some barrels. (like there isn't already a long enough wait)

Want to see a chewed up 308 (that still shoots) I should figure out how to save pics from my Lyman of my F-TR barrel with 4700 though it.

Get a swab from the surface of your keyboard or better yet, the kitchen counter and throw it under a microscope. You may never eat again.

 

[gunlover05]

I have a sporter Howa 308 stainless in its factory stock (Hogue pillar that I devcon bedded also). I have been toying with the idea of getting a B&C medalist myself!, as I'm not a big fan of the stock stock ;-) I would love to hear more or see some pics.

To your point on accuracy, try some flat-based bullets if you haven't already. Mine has a 3x9 scope, and I have been handloading and trying to find best accuracy. I have tried several very good boat tail bullets, and a few powders, all 3 shot groups usually were .8-1.35moa average. I had read 2 articles where the same stock rifle shot 1/2-3/4" with American whitetail 150gr ammo that uses Hornady interlock bullets that are flat based.

So, I loaded some 168 Nosler Partitions (not a match bullet) with 42gr IMR4064 (not a hot load), LCLR neck sized brass, and accuracy increased noticeably down to .6". I will try some 150 interlocks, just to see, but with that kind of accuracy, think I'm done for a hunting rifle. I just want to decide on a B&C stock.

Anyhow I think your barrel is likely just fine, I would just suggest to try some flatbased bullets if you haven't and a few powders. In addition 10 thou increment distance from the lands can make a big difference, sometimes.

 

[Shynloco]

jdbell,
First off, welcome aboard. This is a terrific site for picking up pointers and valuable information that helps achieve accuracy. As to your post, I have no idea what your shooting experience is or that with purchasing rifles. I note that you wrote you have some 500 handloads down the tube, but are not pleased with the groups that barrel is shooting. You then took a look down the with a borescope and saw an ugly picture. For what it's worth (probably not much) over my many years of shooting, I have found a very common mistake made by folks which is, they buy a rifle set up for hunting, and then expect it to somehow miraculously end up shooting like a Target rifle. Simply put, it ain't happenin! Handloads are definitely better than across the counter factory loads, but you still aren't going to be able to achieve that much better accuracy, if the barrel isn't manufactured or prepared properly or at least to the extent that a Benchrest Target barrel is made by a top quality manufacturer. And make no mistake, I'm not here to trash Howa or any other rifle maker. But you get what you pay for. Most across the counter rifles, no matter the caliber, are set up for hunting accuracy and a 2" group @ 100 yds is reasonable. The problem is that once you start shooting a target rifle, everyone is looking for those 5 shot groups (@100) that measure less than 1/4" or in the 1's and 2's). Might just be your barrel was never made to do that. Its like you expect your nice shinney new mid size car to ride like a Cadillac. If I were you, I'd find what your rifle is capable of and work from there. In other words, work up loads on that .308 using 168 gr bullets (I use Sierra MK's) that all .308's seems to find most accurate @100 yds. I'd recommend using either Varget, RE15 or even IMR 4895 powder. And if you can't get your groups down below .500, that rifle may not be able to get you where you want to go. So then your next consideration, if you want smaller grouping, may want to consider buying a completed rifle like a Savage or some other rifle that has a reputation for shooting tight groups and is across the counter rifle. If you demand even more accuracy, get your wallet out and have one built.

Just my take. Good luck and have fun.

Alex

 

[RayceMe]

Keep fighting the good fight brother, eventually everything gets upgraded. When you finally end up with with the best components, your capabilities will be there too. Then you'll ponder it for a second and say damn I spent alot of money...... now lets go shoot!!! I'ts an ongoing science experiment and a labor of love my friend.

 

[majohnson]

Have you tried different glass? Is the scope level? Are all the scope bolts torque correctly. Check the bolts holding the action to the stock. Have you check to see if the barrel is hitting the stock. 308 are known for long barrel life which is why it so popular with the military. What about factory ammo, have you tried any? Different brands? Shooting rest what are you using? There are a lot of things to try before I woukld replace the barrel.

 

[jdbell2004]

Thanks guys! I think I just need to realign my expectations. I was shooting alongside my buddy with a Rem 700 SPS in 308 and his groups always seemed tighter than mine. I just assumed something in my reloading or barrel condition was off as I had read great things about Howa accuracy.

I just ordered some Lapua brass and will work some 168 Amax varget loads up over the next few weeks.

 

[jdbell2004]

Have you tried different glass? Is the scope level? Are all the scope bolts torque correctly. Check the bolts holding the action to the stock. Have you check to see if the barrel is hitting the stock. 308 are known for long barrel life which is why it so popular with the military. What about factory ammo, have you tried any? Different brands? Shooting rest what are you using? There are a lot of things to try before I woukld replace the barrel.

I've only used my Monarch on this rifle. No idea on the actual torque, but the screws are very tight on rings, bases, and action. I do need to check my level. The barrel is very clear of the stock. I have fired some factory rounds through it but it was a few years ago and I don't have the results from those after several moves. I shoot off sandbags typically. I agree there are many, many variables. I'll continue to give this setup some work and see where she takes me.

 

[jdbell2004]

I have a sporter Howa 308 stainless in its factory stock (Hogue pillar that I devcon bedded also). I have been toying with the idea of getting a B&C medalist myself!, as I'm not a big fan of the stock stock ;-) I would love to hear more or see some pics.

To your point on accuracy, try some flat-based bullets if you haven't already. Mine has a 3x9 scope, and I have been handloading and trying to find best accuracy. I have tried several very good boat tail bullets, and a few powders, all 3 shot groups usually were .8-1.35moa average. I had read 2 articles where the same stock rifle shot 1/2-3/4" with American whitetail 150gr ammo that uses Hornady interlock bullets that are flat based.

So, I loaded some 168 Nosler Partitions (not a match bullet) with 42gr IMR4064 (not a hot load), LCLR neck sized brass, and accuracy increased noticeably down to .6". I will try some 150 interlocks, just to see, but with that kind of accuracy, think I'm done for a hunting rifle. I just want to decide on a B&C stock.

Anyhow I think your barrel is likely just fine, I would just suggest to try some flatbased bullets if you haven't and a few powders. In addition 10 thou increment distance from the lands can make a big difference, sometimes.

I'll get some pictures of my setup for you this evening. I love the stock, it's heavy but its incredibly solid and sits well on a rest. I don't think I've tried anything but boat-tail bullets. I'll give some flatbase bullets a shot over the next few weeks. It's been incredibly windy here the past week or so

 

[1shot]

Thanks guys! I think I just need to realign my expectations. I was shooting alongside my buddy with a Rem 700 SPS in 308 and his groups always seemed tighter than mine. I just assumed something in my reloading or barrel condition was off as I had read great things about Howa accuracy.

I just ordered some Lapua brass and will work some 168 Amax varget loads up over the next few weeks.

Trade rifles with your buddy. This will eliminate another of your variables.

 

[RayceMe]

+1 Try your buddies, use his bag and rest, whole setup

 

[LR Hunter]

Pretty much wore out a factory 300 WSM looking for better accuracy. Could get 3 or 4 out of 5 to go into a good group with one flyer all the time. Switched scopes and flyers went away immediately. Turns out the Nikon Monarch scope I had was junk from the beginning, I will only use a Nightforce scope from now on!!! You might try borrowing a different scope from a shooting buddy to eliminate that as well.

 

[Jose_Luis_G]

Thanks for the input guys. This is the first barrel I've scoped and I have nothing to compare it to. I was surprised how dirty it was when I thought I had finished cleaning it. If nothing else, it's an awesome tool to aid in cleaning. I haven't had the barrel this clean since it was new, I'll load up some rounds I'm developing and see how she does. The last thing I want to do is spend more money on a new barrel, that's why I asked here.

By cleaning that much, you will notice one thing:
Barrel must be clean but never to the point of being like Factory issued.
I can say more; I cleaned my barrels very deep with electrolysis once. From that point, I had to foul them until they went back to normality.
Conclusion: No more deep cleaning until really needed, i.e. a never cleaned, widely used 8x57 Mauser dated 1941.

 

[majohnson]

Pick up a good inch pound torque wrench. I use a dial which is much better them click type. You can tell what the threads are like when using a dial. If the receiver isn't siting and tightened correctly, it can cause wear issues with the bolt lugs.

I would take everything apart. Remove the scope, take the rings off clean it all and then correctly assemble everything. Find some Federal 168 or 175, they are a known product that is very consistent.

More barrels have been damaged by cleaning then any other factor. Never use anything but a plastic bristle brush.

If you're around the No CO, I would be willimg to help you.