Fellas i was wondering how the Barnard action stacks up to the infamous BAt actions? I have a good friend here that is very highly held and he claims Barnard is the better action, or at least value. I really dont have a build in mind currently but you never know when i might and i cant stop thinking about these barnard actions. I love my BAT actions so im not sure what i will do if anything at all. I like a good discussion so i thought this would be a good topic. I also wonder why i dont see very many Barnard action in the ppc shoots i attend?? That trigger that comes with the barnard looks like a heck of a trigger i might add. I did a quick search on this topic and i found one little post but not a lot of info, so hopefully some of you other fellas can share your thoughts or ideas. Thanks Lee
Barnard or BAT???
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
TheBlueEyedBear
'The Nut Behind The Trigger'
I have a Barnard 'P' on a DASHER and truly like it. The gun flat out shoots!! Is it because of the action or is just John King's 'touch'.
I have three different BAT actions types; SV, B, and M. Would I say that they are better then the Barnard? Maybe, but I can't think of a reason why.
The reason you probably don't see the Barnard in the PPC shoots is probably the size. The model 'P' is no small action.
I'm just guessing,,, so there's my $.02 worth.
Picture of my Barnard is attached.
Like I said, I love this gun!!!! ;D
Barry
I have three different BAT actions types; SV, B, and M. Would I say that they are better then the Barnard? Maybe, but I can't think of a reason why.
The reason you probably don't see the Barnard in the PPC shoots is probably the size. The model 'P' is no small action.
I'm just guessing,,, so there's my $.02 worth.
Picture of my Barnard is attached.
Like I said, I love this gun!!!! ;D
Barry
Attachments
I think we all know which one looks better. ;D I haven't had the pleasure of owning a Barnard yet but I've got to look them over man those ARE sweet. You don't hear about them on BR lines that much at least around here, but lots of them are on the LR highpower lines. If I hadn't stumbled on this BAT I probably would have used a Barnard on this build I'm working on. For me BAT is just a skip and a hop away, so if I ever need parts or service they won't be that difficult to find.
The Barnard is one heck of a deal considering that it is a very well manufactured action that comes with a very good trigger.
The Barnard is a rather large action so if wt. is a factor, like in benchrest competition, most would rather have the wt in the bbl rather than the action.
My shooting partner competes in F Class and has two Barnards, they are shooters, no way around it.
My other shooting partner has two three lug BATS and they shoot lights out as well. I'll bet he has quite a few more dollars in the BAT actions with their Anschutz triggers.
I think the BAT has more flowing lines. That said, the Barnard is chromoly and while the BAT is SS. SS actions are softer than Chromoly and their lugs will gall quicker if not lubed on a regular basis.
Either action will get you there. Just depends on what you like and how much you have to spend.
Bob
The Barnard is a rather large action so if wt. is a factor, like in benchrest competition, most would rather have the wt in the bbl rather than the action.
My shooting partner competes in F Class and has two Barnards, they are shooters, no way around it.
My other shooting partner has two three lug BATS and they shoot lights out as well. I'll bet he has quite a few more dollars in the BAT actions with their Anschutz triggers.
I think the BAT has more flowing lines. That said, the Barnard is chromoly and while the BAT is SS. SS actions are softer than Chromoly and their lugs will gall quicker if not lubed on a regular basis.
Either action will get you there. Just depends on what you like and how much you have to spend.
Bob
Hi Skeetlee,
http://www.truefliteriflebarrels.co.nz/4790.html
the link is to the True flite Barrel makers/gunsmiths, with an impressive reputation in NZ; they love Barnards. They are a friendly bunch so they may answer any queries you have (they are busy though). I'm not sure they could give you a gunsmiths Bat - Barnard comparison but maybe give you a little more detail from a gunsmiths perspective.
Over here they are incredibly popular for F-class, but Bat and kelby appear more favoured for bench ppc work.
Hopefully the link will take you straight to True Flites comments on the Barnards.
I am building a rifle based on a Barnard P - True Flite Barrel and H&H flexibed stock.
Wayne
http://www.truefliteriflebarrels.co.nz/4790.html
the link is to the True flite Barrel makers/gunsmiths, with an impressive reputation in NZ; they love Barnards. They are a friendly bunch so they may answer any queries you have (they are busy though). I'm not sure they could give you a gunsmiths Bat - Barnard comparison but maybe give you a little more detail from a gunsmiths perspective.
Over here they are incredibly popular for F-class, but Bat and kelby appear more favoured for bench ppc work.
Hopefully the link will take you straight to True Flites comments on the Barnards.
I am building a rifle based on a Barnard P - True Flite Barrel and H&H flexibed stock.
Wayne
TheBlueEyedBear
'The Nut Behind The Trigger'
Lee,
The stock on this DASHER is a MANNERS composit BR. A little extra work had to be done on the inletting to accomodate the Barnard. Nothing major though. I remember when I took the action to John King for the build he told me that it reminded him of the old Wichita actions.
As far as the trigger goes, I like it better than a Jewell. The only problem is bottom line adjustment. It will not go down to the 1.5 oz. that a Jewell can be set to. I think mine is at 4.5 ozs.
You cannot go wrong with one of these actions.
Barry
The stock on this DASHER is a MANNERS composit BR. A little extra work had to be done on the inletting to accomodate the Barnard. Nothing major though. I remember when I took the action to John King for the build he told me that it reminded him of the old Wichita actions.
As far as the trigger goes, I like it better than a Jewell. The only problem is bottom line adjustment. It will not go down to the 1.5 oz. that a Jewell can be set to. I think mine is at 4.5 ozs.
You cannot go wrong with one of these actions.
Barry
I do not see how anyone could possible be limited in any way be either of these. Both of these actions are top of the line and have shoot world records. Any properly made rifle with either of these will flat out shoot better than the shooter. They will not be the limiting factor. I have two Barnard based rifle that have been absolute hammers from day one. I do not own a Bat based rifle but I have no doubt one made buy a comparable smith would do just as well as my Barnards. I think people spend way too much time on things that don't matter. If your going to build a rifle, pick the components that are appropriate for your use, buy the best you can afford, in the brand that tikels your fancy, have it mad by the best smith you can and be done with it. Now GO SHOOT IT, because YOU are where the difference is.
PS, not try to be too grumpy but I'm getting tired of the equipment race.
PS, not try to be too grumpy but I'm getting tired of the equipment race.
JC,
I think that anyone purchasing components for a custom rifle build has a world of choices to make and how lucky we are.
If you are looking at a benchrest rifle, all you really need to do is look at any of the large match results. They list all the equipment used by the winning shooters.
At a HP match, they don't do the equipment lists like BR does, but any of the competitors will give you the details of their rifle once the match is over.
I am not sure if it is an equipment race anymore. Benchrest is so very cookie cutter when it comes to the rifle. Any combination of custom action, bbl, and stock will end up as a 6mm PPC shooting a 68 gr bullet and you just hone your loading and shooting skills. (That is an over simplification but you get the drift).
There is much more experimentation going on in HP and F-Class to find the "Magic Bullet". There are a host of different calibers, bullet wts. bbl lenghts, Iron sights, scopes, Palma class , Any-Any class and the list goes on and on.
At this point I beleive that any custom built rifle shoots better than the driver and it becomes a knowledge and skills race. You can't buy points or small groups with equipment. Good equipment ensure that you can rise to the level of your ability.
Regardless, any shooting sport is expensive to get into and sustain the effort.
Just a couple of thoughts on the subject.
Bob
I think that anyone purchasing components for a custom rifle build has a world of choices to make and how lucky we are.
If you are looking at a benchrest rifle, all you really need to do is look at any of the large match results. They list all the equipment used by the winning shooters.
At a HP match, they don't do the equipment lists like BR does, but any of the competitors will give you the details of their rifle once the match is over.
I am not sure if it is an equipment race anymore. Benchrest is so very cookie cutter when it comes to the rifle. Any combination of custom action, bbl, and stock will end up as a 6mm PPC shooting a 68 gr bullet and you just hone your loading and shooting skills. (That is an over simplification but you get the drift).
There is much more experimentation going on in HP and F-Class to find the "Magic Bullet". There are a host of different calibers, bullet wts. bbl lenghts, Iron sights, scopes, Palma class , Any-Any class and the list goes on and on.
At this point I beleive that any custom built rifle shoots better than the driver and it becomes a knowledge and skills race. You can't buy points or small groups with equipment. Good equipment ensure that you can rise to the level of your ability.
Regardless, any shooting sport is expensive to get into and sustain the effort.
Just a couple of thoughts on the subject.
Bob
Bob:
I completely agree. My GrizzlyII based Benchrest rifle built by Gary O'cock and Lester Bruno is not in any way a limiting factor in my shooting. The components in Benchrest rifle has indeed become pretty standard. Pick form any of the many outstanding components in the good to go list and have at it. You must admit though that the goal of the Benchrest Hunter rifle and Varmint Hunter rifle class have been totally changed by the equipment race which now has them made from the same components as the all out Varmint class rifles. These 2 classes do not in any way any longer encourage new shooters to try the sport. Instead, if anything they are harder to shoot , because of the 6x power scope, but less populated classes at the shoots. End result - equipment race eliminated the original goal and there is nothing that has replaced it except a pretty much non existent "factory class".
The same thing is now going on particularly in local F Class shoots. These rifle are now being built by local shooters for mid range shooting with the same absolute top of the line custom components AND CALIBERS as those shooting long range.Shooting a 7mmSAUM at 300 yards is patently a waste too me.
Now don't get me wrong I like nice toys, and I've got 'em! But it still bothers me a bit that at so many levels the emphasis gets shifted too much toward equipment and too little to the technique. I many cases money and time are being spent that in NO WAY contributes to improved outcome at the expense (both of money and time) that would be better spend on shooting.
I even love talking about equipment , But really folks non of you could tell one bit of difference in shooting results in any top notch rifle built on a Bat, Farley, GrizzlyII, Barnard,... action.
I completely agree. My GrizzlyII based Benchrest rifle built by Gary O'cock and Lester Bruno is not in any way a limiting factor in my shooting. The components in Benchrest rifle has indeed become pretty standard. Pick form any of the many outstanding components in the good to go list and have at it. You must admit though that the goal of the Benchrest Hunter rifle and Varmint Hunter rifle class have been totally changed by the equipment race which now has them made from the same components as the all out Varmint class rifles. These 2 classes do not in any way any longer encourage new shooters to try the sport. Instead, if anything they are harder to shoot , because of the 6x power scope, but less populated classes at the shoots. End result - equipment race eliminated the original goal and there is nothing that has replaced it except a pretty much non existent "factory class".
The same thing is now going on particularly in local F Class shoots. These rifle are now being built by local shooters for mid range shooting with the same absolute top of the line custom components AND CALIBERS as those shooting long range.Shooting a 7mmSAUM at 300 yards is patently a waste too me.
Now don't get me wrong I like nice toys, and I've got 'em! But it still bothers me a bit that at so many levels the emphasis gets shifted too much toward equipment and too little to the technique. I many cases money and time are being spent that in NO WAY contributes to improved outcome at the expense (both of money and time) that would be better spend on shooting.
I even love talking about equipment , But really folks non of you could tell one bit of difference in shooting results in any top notch rifle built on a Bat, Farley, GrizzlyII, Barnard,... action.
Thanks for the info fellas i always appreciate it! I talked with some reputable fellas today and there is no question that the barnard actions are good actions! I really dont have a project in mind at the moment but if i did it would probably be a 30BR 13.5# rifle. Or another 6br? I have a couple BAT SV actions that are pc's and i absolutely love them. I guess the only thing i worry about with Barnard is the weight and the availability of stock inlets for them. I know i could have one made but i hate waiting and there is usually some pretty good deals around here and most are rem 700 or BAt foot prints.
JCummings,
You are right about F-Class, but it is probably one area where the experimentation is still going on hot and heavy. Most in F-Class tend to be older and have deeper pockets for all the experiments.
The interesting thing to me is that for all the wildcats that people are shooting, some of the best results are from 6 BRs and 284 Winchesters. If you are shooting 600 yds or less, the 6BR is King. At 1K, the 6BR in calm conditions rules, if the wind is blowing a 7mm is tough to beat.
All that said, the hard core Palma shooters will clean everybody's clock. It is the Indian and not the arrow that wins the match.
It is a shame that entry level classes don't stay that way for very long. In FTR, the Savages have really changed the game. Of course they have invested greatly in catering to the competition shooters needs.
No matter how you cut it, stock or custom, the sport takes some cash just to compete.
Bob
You are right about F-Class, but it is probably one area where the experimentation is still going on hot and heavy. Most in F-Class tend to be older and have deeper pockets for all the experiments.
The interesting thing to me is that for all the wildcats that people are shooting, some of the best results are from 6 BRs and 284 Winchesters. If you are shooting 600 yds or less, the 6BR is King. At 1K, the 6BR in calm conditions rules, if the wind is blowing a 7mm is tough to beat.
All that said, the hard core Palma shooters will clean everybody's clock. It is the Indian and not the arrow that wins the match.
It is a shame that entry level classes don't stay that way for very long. In FTR, the Savages have really changed the game. Of course they have invested greatly in catering to the competition shooters needs.
No matter how you cut it, stock or custom, the sport takes some cash just to compete.
Bob
I have bench rest / ftr rifle built on the small barnard S action,remmy footprint.
Shehane “Tracker Stock” in McMillan fiberglass.
Machined ADL Trigger Guard in aluminum.
Jewel trigger.
30'' medium palmer contour .308 Krieger barrel.
Mt guns Picatinny scope rail with 24 minutes of elevation,9" long.
High tps tactical ring.
Weaver T36 scope.
It's weight is 13.8 lb
I'm thinking about putting it on a diet,and getting it to 13.5 lb
I don't think weight is an issue with Barnard S action.
Shehane “Tracker Stock” in McMillan fiberglass.
Machined ADL Trigger Guard in aluminum.
Jewel trigger.
30'' medium palmer contour .308 Krieger barrel.
Mt guns Picatinny scope rail with 24 minutes of elevation,9" long.
High tps tactical ring.
Weaver T36 scope.
It's weight is 13.8 lb
I'm thinking about putting it on a diet,and getting it to 13.5 lb
I don't think weight is an issue with Barnard S action.
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