Bad shooter or the gun not liking anmo

[Wolfdog91]

Ok so this is a little test I did the other day with factory ammo . I usually don't.shoot any factory past rimfire or when I'm just getting fire formed stuff off a new gun. By the time I find what factory stuff a gun like I usually could have gotten a pound of powder and possibly some bullets and a few primers. But was filming a review on this and thought it would be fun to try .I know it's kinda crap ammo but locally this is the most I could get selection wise . About all anyone wants here is mil spec and some hp's .To me it shows plain and simple what the gun likes and what it doesn't but I've been told other things crappy shooter , my gun shoots the same stuff great yadda yadda , y'all know the drill lol !
Admittedly I'm about a 1.5 MOA shooter.. but shooting 1" -3/4" less from the bench is fairly common and easy for me . Also never had this x tax shoot well in much for me or people I know 2-3 moa @100yd is about average but again folks swear up and down this stuff is "great " also was the first 30rd out this gun so maybe this is breaking in ?
Idk it's a pretty crap barrel I'm planning on chunking anyway so meh ....
Anyhow what say y'all

 

[DLT]

The frontier ammo shoots great in a couple my rifles. Good on coyotes too

 

[K22]

I see groups like 1 and 3 (about 2 moa) all the time at the range, not unusual at all for factory rifles, factory ammo, and average (infrequent) shooters.

This is not intended as a criticism but if you are indeed a 1.5 moa shooter on average, then these groups could be representative of the equipment, ammo, and shooter especially if you were testing in gusty wind conditions and or high mirage. Most shooters also have bad days, at least I do. Also, a lot of shooters I encounter at two different clubs are on average, over 1.5 moa shooters.

I have been at the range the last two days and the wind has been a problem. I shot uncharacteristically well under my average. It was meaningful practice but not the kind of conditions you would want to test anything other than the shooter's ability to handle the wind.

 

[jds holler]

So, I bought a thousand rounds of the PMC just for the deal, ($439) and to get a good bunch of once fired brass from my own AR. It generally groups 1.5-2.5 inches. Then I take that brass and reload it with 55 gr. Hornady Bulk spritzers, and they group a solid MOA. My rifle is cheap, but pretty good in my book. jd

 

[jelenko]

To follow up on K22's point.
You have to be able to shoot significantly smaller than the rifle/ammo to be to see what it's capable of.

 

[dryhumor]

About the only time I seek out factory ammo is to try a specific projectile. If it shoots well, then I’ll get the box of bullets to reload. Tends to save a few bucks while hitting the easy button.

That said, I’m slowly plinking my way through stuff I’ve got a few of, partial boxes, and decades old stuff. That, and leftovers from load development.

 

[CSLR grandpa]

Wolfie different guns and ammo sometimes big difference, two 223’s -capable of 1/4” with reloads-one is a bolt factory Remington 9 twist heavy barrel shoots Sierra prairie enemy 55 factory loads under 1/2”, The other is an AR 13 twist heavy barrel krieger scatters them like a shot gun, both 24” long. ( both rifles are very capable )
Reloads you can make a decent barrel shoot, sometimes you get lucky with a factory loaded ammo

As stated above some days are better than others.

CSLR grandpa

 

[SecondsCount]

....
I usually dot.

Are you using a red dot sight?

If you are, those groups would be acceptable in my book. Get a decent scope on that gun and your groups might shrink.

 

[Wolfdog91]

Are you using a red dot sight?

If you are, those groups would be acceptable in my book. Get a decent scope on that gun and your groups might shrink.

Sorry typo , that was supposed to be don't.as in I usually don't shoot factory. Anyhow it's got a hold decent lil 4-16 on it . Reticle is definitely a bit thicker then what that add made it look like . I really need to just get a scope with a thin cross hair and keep it as a floater for testing but I never get around to it lol


Also need to find a better way to take pictures though scopes because my phone is meh

 

[Wolfdog91]

To follow up on K22's point.
You have to be able to shoot significantly smaller than the rifle/ammo to be to see what it's capable of.

Well on average same rest rage conditions tish is what I'm shooting like with my other .223's with hand loads . One bolt one AR. It's definitely not the best but fell I should be doing better then what though groups are if the gun was liking the ammo. Like I said I'm about a 1.5 moa guy , but I get below that pretty frequently at least to where I know it's not just dumb luck and coincidence

 

[Wolfdog91]

I see groups like 1 and 3 (about 2 moa) all the time at the range, not unusual at all for factory rifles, factory ammo, and average (infrequent) shooters.

This is not intended as a criticism but if you are indeed a 1.5 moa shooter on average, then these groups could be representative of the equipment, ammo, and shooter especially if you were testing in gusty wind conditions and or high mirage. Most shooters also have bad days, at least I do. Also, a lot of shooters I encounter at two different clubs are on average, over 1.5 moa shooters.

I have been at the range the last two days and the wind has been a problem. I shot uncharacteristically well under my average. It was meaningful practice but not the kind of conditions you would want to test anything other than the shooter's ability to handle the wind.

See what what I'm saying , this is fairly low quality ammo all things considered, at least from what I see , the barrel....well this was a $300 upper so I know it's not a proof or something nice like that . But still . I got one group thats big one all over the place and one trying and tighter then all the others . That should indicate that the rifle is really liking something more then something else right ?Think there was a slight breeze but we're talking 100yd . I know benc rest guys will adjust for wind at that distance but there measuring in the .00" lol. Shouldn't mess with groups this wildly at 100yd right ?

 

[Wolfdog91]

So, I bought a thousand rounds of the PMC just for the deal, ($439) and to get a good bunch of once fired brass from my own AR. It generally groups 1.5-2.5 inches. Then I take that brass and reload it with 55 gr. Hornady Bulk spritzers, and they group a solid MOA. My rifle is cheap, but pretty good in my book. jd

Honestly that's been my experience with most factory.223. it's honestly cheaper for me half the time to just handload from the start. Spend $12 of cheap whatever just tj get fire formed cases to measure off and function test then after that roll my own.seems buy the time I find something it likes store bought I could have paid for a box of bullets , a pound of powder and maybe some primers

 

[TC260]

Reticle is definitely a bit thicker then what that add made it look like . I really need to just get a scope with a thin cross hair and keep it as a floater for testing but I never get around to it lol

SWFA makes a tough scope that you can swap around and doesn’t break the bank and they go on sale periodically.

 

[K22]

See what what I'm saying , this is fairly low quality ammo all things considered, at least from what I see , the barrel....well this was a $300 upper so I know it's not a proof or something nice like that . But still . I got one group thats big one all over the place and one trying and tighter then all the others . That should indicate that the rifle is really liking something more then something else right ?Think there was a slight breeze but we're talking 100yd . I know benc rest guys will adjust for wind at that distance but there measuring in the .00" lol. Shouldn't mess with groups this wildly at 100yd right ?

True, effects are less at 100 yards than further out. However, look at wind drift charts for 100 yards. Depends on speed, direction, and variability (i.e. gusts). Also, mirage can be a factor.

Also, true that a "slight breeze" as you stated would not cause that degree of dispersion. The last couple days here have been harsh wind wise, and my dispersion was noticeably larger, more than normal by a significant amount. The range is open with no wind breaks.

You raise the question of bad shooter or ammo. If you shoot frequently and measure you results you should have a fairly accurate handle on your capability unless you are having a bad day which most of us have from time to time.

In my experience, dispersion like groups 1 and 2 is usually indicative of something mechanical off in the rifle/scope or the bullet does not match the twist rate of the rifle.

Dispersion like group 3 is somewhat typical of factory ammo, factory rifles, and or average shooters. Notice the clustering and the one flyer.

Many shooters ignore the effects of wind, mirage and shooter consistency when testing. These all can play a role in dispersion but groups 1 and 2, at 100 yards look like something else is going on.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Here is an experiment you might try. I equate this type of ammo as being maybe a tiny step better than military ball ammo. Many years ago I tried some military .223 ammo in a very accurate 700 BDL Varmint I was shooting running deer and off hand matches with. It shot 3 to 4 inches quite often for 5 shot groups. I pulled the bullets with side cutters ( hi tech), did nothing else but seat a 55 gr Sierra Spitzer. Now it shot 1 inch or a bit better. Try it and let us know, it would be interesting.

 

[ShtrRdy]

I have a hard time shooting an AR as well as I can shoot a bolt gun. With the AR, I haven't been able to figure out if it's me, the rifle, or the ammo. I guess that's what your original question is too. That factory loaded Hornady ammo though looks pretty good!

 

[Downhill]

First I would verify there is no contact between the gas block and handguard. Have a Grendel that would group 3 to 5 inches with no consistitancy. Gas block was contacting handguard. Fixed that and it holds 3/4 to 1 inch now.

 

[Knotwild]

When I first started out with AR's I was disappointed in my group sizes. I have noticed in your videos that you use a front rest and bag sometimes. All I ever shot was bolt guns. Then I realized they are very hard to shoot off bags and a rest - very hard. To me they are negative ergonomic. You are fighting a forearm that is prone to sticking to the front rest, most have collapsible butt stocks that won't work in a rear bag. And even solid stocks don't allow good work in the rear rest. This was really affecting my groups. I don't shoot off bipods because I never use them when in the field.

I got some baby powder and coated the front rest bags, then I took a paper towel tube, slit it and put it over my forearm with baby powder on the outside. I quit using collapsible stocks and I pay attention to how they lay in the rear bag. This all allowed more consistent recoil in those bags.

There is so much 5.56/.223 stuff out there today and it is so easy to order it online, that I never buy FMJ. I have never found any of it that shot well. But I have had some real good results with some versions of PSA's 5.56 ammo. Their 55 gr black tip shot extremely well in my cheapo PSA upper and a Remington 783 of mine. However, I thought it resembled the Nosler Varmageddon when I bought it, but the bullet performs like a FMJ. I also have a few boxes of this I have yet to try, but I have high hopes - 77 gr Open Tipped Match.

I also had some exceptional luck with Hornady American White Tail in 6.5 Creedmore and this stuff used to be under $15.

There are some deals on good stuff out there that performs and you may be lucky to find it. But there are so many variables, it's hard to sort through it. An ammunition that shoots bad could be that way because of something simple, like seating depth.

The bottom line to me is this - there must be at least 50 variables when you try a test like you described. The only question for me is will it work to do the job I put in front of it.

 

[jelenko]

77 gr Open Tipped Match.

That is a really, really good price.

 

[bozo699]

I see groups like 1 and 3 (about 2 moa) all the time at the range, not unusual at all for factory rifles, factory ammo, and average (infrequent) shooters.

This is not intended as a criticism but if you are indeed a 1.5 moa shooter on average, then these groups could be representative of the equipment, ammo, and shooter especially if you were testing in gusty wind conditions and or high mirage. Most shooters also have bad days, at least I do. Also, a lot of shooters I encounter at two different clubs are on average, over 1.5 moa shooters.

I have been at the range the last two days and the wind has been a problem. I shot uncharacteristically well under my average. It was meaningful practice but not the kind of conditions you would want to test anything other than the shooter's ability to handle the wind.

Well stated
Wayne