Bad lot of powder

[Gil P.]

H

Id also check neck clearance. Too tight here causes all kinds of accuracy, ES, and velocity related issues.

How can I measure that? I do clean the chamber and neck area frequently. Should I turn the necks and see what happens if the new powder lot doesn't solve the problem?

I saw one from PMA that looks easy to use.

 

[47WillysGuy]

.Carbon ring, maybe? 800 rounds and more copper , I would visually look there first, if you haven’t already.

 

[The boogalorian]

H

How can I measure that? I do clean the chamber and neck area frequently. Should I turn the necks and see what happens if the new powder lot doesn't solve the problem?

I saw one from PMA that looks easy to use.

I shoot the 6.5x47L in two different rifles. Both chambers are are "no turn neck" reamers.

A fired piece of brass is 0.293"- 0.294" at the neck od.



A loaded piece of brass is 0.289" at the neck od.



The neck thickness is ~ 0.013" (I clean my necks to 90-95%).



I would agree with Alex that you should check the neck clearance. Too little clearance can cause erratic problems.

Hope this helps.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

One way is to try to drop a bullet through a fired case neck. It should fall through. Ask your gunsmith for a reamer print and find the neck diameter in your chamber. And make sure your loaded round is at least .003" smaller than that, Id prefer .004"

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

I'm loading 40.1 gr of it in my (trued Rem 700 with PTG bolt) 6.5x47 Lapua with a rock creek barrel, cci 450s, Berger 140 Hybrids, and Lapua brass.

I always try to use load data recommended by the bullet manufacturer. Using H4350, Berger recommends 35 to 38.9 gr powder. Velocity starts at 2431 to 2698 FPS. They design their bullets and test them. If they felt that more powder would give better results, they would say so.

I did not notice the barrel twist you have, but Berger states 1/8 or faster, for that bullet.

I have found thru my own experiments that loading Berger bullets always gets better results by sticking to the middle of what they specify. Before you get into new barrels, I would try a ladder test, starting at 36 gr and working up. I think you might find that there is a marked improvement it accuracy. Most folks seem to think, that velocity improves accuracy. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Once you reach your node, consistency of velocity is the most important factor.

 

[Drop Port]

I get what your saying Roger,
but I don't have friends, I compete in club matches and have competed in PRS matches up until a couple years ago when my daughter was born, I know I'm new to this site, but I consider myself a competent shooter.

I've been reloading for about 10 years, but I don't turn necks, measure runout, measure neck thickness, or weight sort anything besides powder. It hasn't been a problem up until now, and I've exhausted everyththing I think could be wrong except for 1) the powder, 2) the barrel, or 3) the gunsmith really messed something up.

40.1 gr wasn't a charge I saw in the internet and started loading I did a ladder test and then I adjusted the seating depth until it shot good. And I kept adjusting the seating depth because the rifle was acting funny, I adjusted the charge weight several times until I went back to 40.1 gr and every time I shot I observed the difference in velocity so I can at least find an fps/degree change I could use. The sensitivity was bad and that's why I think something is up with the powder.

I am getting a new jug of powder this weekend to test my hypothesis about the powder. Im posting on this forum to try to learn some new things as well as for general information about powders.

Out of your possible listed problems, I would start with the easiest and just try some Varget. If it doesn't like Varget either I would personally feel it's something other than powder.

My current 47L shoots your basic combo in the low .2's at 2780 and comes in again at a higher node approaching 2900 and even tighter groups. I have had an extremely fast lot of H-4350. Fast as in picked up 50 fps with same load.

 

[Likes416cal]

I think I may have a bad lot of H4350.

I'm loading 40.1 gr of it in my (trued Rem 700 with PTG bolt) 6.5x47 Lapua with a rock creek barrel, cci 450s, Berger 140 Hybrids, and Lapua brass.

This rifle has been giving me problems since I got it, I also think something is wrong with the barrel.

From 60 degrees to 104 degrees ambient temp, my velocity went from 2815 to 2970. All shooting is done from the shade. The rifle can't seem to group well.

I've tried 123 scenars, and Berger 130 hybrids with varget and got pretty good results. The problem was sometimes the rifle would group really well with those loads and sometimes it would scatter groups over 1 inch at 100 yards.

I tried shooting with and without a brake and the rifle still exhibits the same behavior.

I noticed that the barrel copper fouls a lot more than the Bartlein that was on the rifle before.

I've tried different primers and that didn't help either.

What should I do about the powder? A 44 degree temperature change shouldn't cause a 155 fps change in velocity should it?
The same gunsmith barreled this rifle with a Bartlein barrel chambered in 308, and I was able to get quarter inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with it.

I've had the same problem in the past with ball powders but not so much with stick, although a 30-40 degree change in temp will have an effect, I had to hammer and drive out an extremely over-pressurized load from a Weatherby Mark V action in 338/378 Wby that I loaded with a less than max loaded of H-870 and tested at 75 degrees and then shot on a 100 degree day. The only thing that saved that gun from blowing up was the extremely strong Weatherby action which fortunately wasn't harmed.
About your powder, do you have another gun in a different caliber that you use to load with this same powder? If so try using the "new" powder in a couple loads for it and see if it makes difference, if so then that's your culprit, if not then I'd start checking the gun for problems...good luck.

 

[Gil P.]

One way is to try to drop a bullet through a fired case neck. It should fall through. Ask your gunsmith for a reamer print and find the neck diameter in your chamber. And make sure your loaded round is at least .003" smaller than that, Id prefer .004"

Fired case is .291, loaded case is .289.

The bullets don't fall into the fires cases, but I can push a bullet into a fired case pretty easily.

I'm about to buy a new lot of powder.

The old lot is 8052019 7119

 

[Gil P.]

I've had the same problem in the past with ball powders but not so much with stick, although a 30-40 degree change in temp will have an effect, I had to hammer and drive out an extremely over-pressurized load from a Weatherby Mark V action in 338/378 Wby that I loaded with a less than max loaded of H-870 and tested at 75 degrees and then shot on a 100 degree day. The only thing that saved that gun from blowing up was the extremely strong Weatherby action which fortunately wasn't harmed.
About your powder, do you have another gun in a different caliber that you use to load with this same powder? If so try using the "new" powder in a couple loads for it and see if it makes difference, if so then that's your culprit, if not then I'd start checking the gun for problems...good luck.

I just picked up a new rifle chambered on 6.5x47 a couple days ago.

I'd rather keep testing on the same rifle for now though. I don't want other variables besides the powder.

 

[Old Navy]

Id also check neck clearance. Too tight here causes all kinds of accuracy, ES, and velocity related issues.

Amen Alex! If he has a properly sized case and the bolt is slightly hard to close, that might be his problem. learned this the hard way back in 69 necking .308 down to .243. Ouch!

 

[Gil P.]

I'm loading 40.1 gr of it in my (trued Rem 700 with PTG bolt) 6.5x47 Lapua with a rock creek barrel, cci 450s, Berger 140 Hybrids, and Lapua brass.

I always try to use load data recommended by the bullet manufacturer. Using H4350, Berger recommends 35 to 38.9 gr powder. Velocity starts at 2431 to 2698 FPS. They design their bullets and test them. If they felt that more powder would give better results, they would say so.

I did not notice the barrel twist you have, but Berger states 1/8 or faster, for that bullet.

I have found thru my own experiments that loading Berger bullets always gets better results by sticking to the middle of what they specify. Before you get into new barrels, I would try a ladder test, starting at 36 gr and working up. I think you might find that there is a marked improvement it accuracy. Most folks seem to think, that velocity improves accuracy. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Once you reach your node, consistency of velocity is the most important factor.

It's a 1/8 twist and 40.1 gr performed best in a 600 yd ladder test I did.

I tested it the next day after the ladder test at 600yd and got some nice groups just over 3". I ladder tested at the powder from 39gr up to 40.5gr.

I shoot with off a bipod and rear bag.

I disagree that generalizations should be made about any components, powder weight, etc...

 

[Superjet]

Fired case is .291, loaded case is .289.

The bullets don't fall into the fires cases, but I can push a bullet into a fired case pretty easily.

I'm about to buy a new lot of powder.

The old lot is 8052019 7119

Seems like your necks may be a bit tight. I know that a CIP Reamed 6.5X47 will be close with un-turned Lapua brass. May be worth picking up a neck turner or borrowing someones to try. A reamer print from your smith would confirm.

 

[Gil P.]

Old lot of H4350 shot at 2871 fps.

New lot shot at 2770 fps.

I fired both loadings about 15 minutes apart.

Peterson ammo Shot at 2700fps, ES 63, SD 22. If anyone was wondering.

 

[Park ranger]

Was the very fast powder left in the hopper for a couple weeks by any chance?

 

[Gil P.]

I did that when I first got the powder, but stopped doing it 3-4 months ago, so all of that powder is gone. I thought that could have caused a problem too, but this powders behavior has always been the same.

 

[Park ranger]

I’ve ran the test. It will change the burn rate. Hmmm. Good luck.

 

[Gil P.]

I’ve ran the test. It will change the burn rate. Hmmm. Good luck.

Will you give us the specifics? I'm interested in what you learned.

The powder I left in the hopper has all been shot, and was shot before I really started logging the velocity of the powder. It was left in a closed hopper, and the hopper and scale were covered by a large plastic bin.

 

[Park ranger]

Will you give us the specifics? I'm interested in what you learned.

The powder I left in the hopper has all been shot, and was shot before I really started logging the velocity of the powder. It was left in a closed hopper, and the hopper and scale were covered by a large plastic bin.

My buddy built a 6.5 CM, same dummy round, same smith, same barrel brand. He played with load work up, zeroing his iron sights, scope, etc. He noticed high pressure signs with the same load I had. He chrono it and was getting way higher velocity than me, and it got worse each range trip. I was loading 42.2 of H4350 for 2890 fps with 140 hybrid. He was almost 3000 with 41 grains.

I gave him my ammo and it was in line with my gun. He is a rocket engineer and had an ah ha moment. He guessed that the solvents were evaporationing changing burn rate. My guess was energy per grain. Tomato tomato...

so we ran a test. He let some powder in the hopper for 3 weeks give or take. Loaded ammo. From the same jug loaded ammo that was sealed. Then loaded from a different lot number. We fired with a magnetospeed and labradar simultaneously. The powder that was left out was way more velocity and pressure signs than the powder in the properly stored jug and the new lot.

in a nutshell.....

 

[Gil P.]

That's very good information, thank you.

When I tested the temp sensitivity I loaded a batch of say 20 rounds. I'd shoot 10, record velocity, and then wait for the temperature to change and shoot the other 10.

 

[DirtySteve]

Fired case is .291, loaded case is .289.

The bullets don't fall into the fires cases, but I can push a bullet into a fired case pretty easily.

I'm about to buy a new lot of powder.

The old lot is 8052019 7119

That seems odd.. I never had a bullet not fall into a fired case. Neck clearance could be the problem..Since your speeds are faster than most folks shooting that load a tight neck would increase pressure and therefore speed.. Sacrifice five cases and take .002 off of them and see what happens.