Attracting Newcomers to Benchrest Competition

[Fred Bohl]

Tryout Match

Concept:

Remove the barriers so all a newcomer needs to tryout Benchrest Competition is to show up with the desire an $50 at a participating match.

Tools:

5 sets of identical LV rifles: same barrels, actions, stocks & scopes all put together by the same smith using the same reamer.

5 matching sets of support gear: front rests, rear bags, & flags.

All ammunition loaded form same components, same dies, same prep tools, same dimensions, same loads, same procedure and done by the same designated person,at least for each match).

Match:

5 newcomers will draw for starting rifle number/position. Each shooter will fire one relay on each firearm,1 relay each on each of 5 rifles/positions by each of 5 shooters). Scoring will be by aggregate of the 5 targets groups and best group of the 25 targets.

Finance:

Initially the equipment, loading services, and support /maintenance will be funded by a $2 per shooter fee for all registered matches by the sanctioning body for one year,any donations by suppliers or shooters would be gratefully accepted). That should provide at least enough sets of equipment for national level matches the next year.

Once operational, ongoing support for the Tryout Match program could be via a $50 fee per shooter participating. Hopefully, the program would be sufficiently popular to eventually expand the availability to all regional sanctioned matches.

 

[bgjohn]

$50 to tryout a benchrest match? You must be kidding. The pistol silhouette people give a free shoot to newbies!
jm

 

[Cheechako]

Fred

You can take any good varmint rifle and enter a Benchrest match. Getting your feet wet is the most important first step. That's how a big majority of guys started. If you REALLY want to compete with a REAL Benchrest rifle there are probably any number of shooters who will be happy to lend you a rifle, just to get you sucked in.

Ray

 

[tightneck]

Fred, I don't know of a range that would turn a prospective new shooter away from a match with his varmint rifle. Most ranges I shoot charge $15 to shoot a single match, some $20 when they provide lunch. Go to a match and see what it's all about. Pretty much every match I attend has at least a couple guys shooting factory class. I don't think you can learn anything about benchrest shooting a factory rifle, but everyone has to start somewhere. If the bug bites bad enough, nothing will stand in your way in aquiring the proper gear, but you will never know until you try. Get to know a few of the competitors and surely one of them will offer up one of their rifles for you to shoot in a match. Then you will know if competitive shooting is for you.

 

[Fred Bohl]

Guys - Thanks to the few that did reply.

The pupose of the post was to test response to a concept Paul and I had disscused within a larger discussion we were having on the problem of declining participation at sanctioned matches,other than F-Class) and the advancing average age of those who do go to matches.

Maybe I did not describe the concept adequately. The intent was to provide a match for newcomers within the regular match and provide full sets of match level LV equipment, guidence and handloads.

JM - If someone is really interested and wants to shoot five relays with top gear under expert guidence and isn't willing to contribute the $50, then he/she isn't likely to pay the startup $6000 or $500 average travel cost to compete.

Cheechako & Tightneck - I used to shoot sanctioned matches back in the late 50s and early 60s,when we struggling to keep the sport active) and the attitudes and help were as you describe. But I've gone to several matches over the last year to observe and learn and do not see that behavior. Most of the "big dogs" are way too busy for the rookies,particularly the young) and I've only seen one let a newcomer try a few practice shots,but no one lent a full set of serious gear to a rookie to compete with). Next few matches take time to look at the reality of the whole match of now not thru the filter of how you remember them or how you would like them to be.

By the way, I was turned away from one match were my "varmint" rifle did not comply with the rules do to its McMillan Tooley MBR stock. I'm not upset about that I knew it doesn't comply. I was urge to try to enter by one of friends that was competing.

For those who sent private comments,and shall remain unidentified here), It is obvious that the NBRSA and IBS are intent on maintaining the status-quo and defending the lore of the "good-old-boys". 40 years of providing engineering and design services has convinced me that the worst excuse for stagnation is "we have always done it that way". Don't worry about me getting back in and making waves, I'm old enough and know enough not beat my head against that brick wall.

 

[Rustystud]

Attracting New comers to BR. Publicity would go a long way. Putting on some BR clinics would be a good step. Have a swap meets so new comers could see and buy things they need. Most shooters have no idea what BR really is. They just assume BR shooting is done with the stock factory rifle or some slight modification. Not so much on this site but on other sites that are more dedicated to just BR shooting new comers often get flamed. If one looks in from the outside the BR faternity is a pretty anal and gruff bunch. Many new comers find it a hard bunch to becone one of the boys. The F-Class and LR prone group tend to be more inviting and forgiving to the newbie. I am not saying all BR groups and antisocial, there are some really great BR shooters and BR ranges.
Rustystud

 

[alf]

Here's another reason.I had a LV/HV gun sold To a fella from Houston until he contacted the closest range & was told they aren't taking any new members! How can you promote the sport if they won't let you in the door? Needless to say, he wasn't going to buy & plink on his own. We just lost another one. Al

 

[Forum Boss]

I think finances are a real barrier to a lot of people particularly guys in their 20s and 30s who have kids, oppressive mortgage payments, car payments and so on.

At the risk of offending the BR establishment, I would like to see a $1000-$1200 class. Something like a Savage Target action,$375), PacNor Pre-fit Barrel,$305-355.00), and SSS Tooley MBR clone stock,$299 incl. pillar bedding). That's $979-1029 before optics.

I know that would be a fun gun to shoot, and if the class was spec'd as a no-turn 6BR 12-twist, the rifles should shoot low 2s or better. Why not give it a try. At that price, clubs could even acquire 2 or 3 of these rifles for newbies to shoot in their own class. Call it "B-League" or "Development class". What do IBS and NBRSA have to lose?

LRBR SSS Stock:

Thumbhole SSS BR Stock:

 

[rayjay]

I shot in my first BR match last month. Next match is this Saturday. All the other shooters were very friendly and helpful. There were 10 entrants of which 2 of us were shooting 'factory' rifles. $20 entry fee with a 40% payback [ I think ] .

Part of the 'new shooter' issue is the natural humiliation a man feels when his equipment is low buck and EVERYONE else has all the trick stuff. At this little club event everyone else was loading at the event, they all had high dollar front rests [ I have a Caldwell Rock BR ], most had the high end bags [ that cost more than my rest ], trick rifles, trick Hood reloading presses, $250+ powder measures, store bought wind flags, etc etc etc.

Mod, you will be happy to know I shoot a Savage 112 single shot with an SSS/Douglas 12 twist, no turn, 6mmBR bbl shooting 30 gr of Varget under Berger 80's. Right now it is still in a BVSS stock but I have a $215 Stockade Short Range BR stock on order. At the first event I used a Tasco 8-32 scope but I have a 36x Weaver now.

The original club rules for the 'Production' and 'Modified' rules were a bit strange. Wide open in some aspects and arbitrarily restrictive in other areas [ 2.5" forend width ? The other 'Modified' shooter had a McMillen Edge stock so his rifle didn't fit the rules ]. I have got the organizers permission to come up with our own 'Production' rules and this is going to be my proposal:

1: Mass produced action or single shot derivative by the same manufacturer.

2: No sleeves.

3: No muzzle brakes.

4: Only the original action to stock mounting system can be used [ sorry mystic ]

That is about it. I would like to require pre-loading [ no reloading at the event ] but you would have to grandfather in anybody who shot a production rifle before and loaded at the range back then.

My rules may seem too open but I have good reasons. First, if you require a factory chamber how do you police it? Same with an aftermarket trigger or real low trigger pull. Why have an arbitrary minimum rifle/scope weight? Why require a low powered scope? You are trying to attract new shooters. Don't put up any road blocks. If somebody wants to get their action trued, then let them. You still have to read the wind and shoot the rifle. The open rules remove any enforcement issues for the event organizers [ rule 5: No whining about the rules ].

I think there are lots of 'BR shooters' out there that would never enter an event because they feel their equipment is so outclassed by the genuine BR stuff. They have a very trick rifle with aftermarket everything but the action, but still it's not a Panda, Bat, etc. With my rules their rifle is suddenly a top shelf piece of equipment.

Enough for now. What do you guys think ?

 

[tightneck]

I think finances are a real barrier to a lot of people particularly guys in their 20s and 30s who have kids, oppressive mortgage payments, car payments and so on.

At the risk of offending the BR establishment, I would like to see a $1000-$1200 class. Something like a Savage Target action,$375), PacNor Pre-fit Barrel,$305-355.00), and SSS Tooley MBR clone stock,$299 incl. pillar bedding). That's $979-1029 before optics.

I know that would be a fun gun to shoot, and if the class was spec'd as a no-turn 6BR 12-twist, the rifles should shoot low 2s or better. Why not give it a try. At that price, clubs could even acquire 2 or 3 of these rifles for newbies to shoot in their own class. Call it "B-League" or "Development class". What do IBS and NBRSA have to lose?

LRBR SSS Stock:

Thumbhole SSS BR Stock:

So what you are really saying is that you want to see a "Savage Class". It's the only action out there that doesn't require the use of a gunsmith, or the ability to do the work yourself. The shooter wanting to get in with an off the shelf factory rifle would stand NO chance in this class.

 

[tightneck]

I shot in my first BR match last month. Next match is this Saturday. All the other shooters were very friendly and helpful. There were 10 entrants of which 2 of us were shooting 'factory' rifles. $20 entry fee with a 40% payback [ I think ] .

Part of the 'new shooter' issue is the natural humiliation a man feels when his equipment is low buck and EVERYONE else has all the trick stuff. At this little club event everyone else was loading at the event, they all had high dollar front rests [ I have a Caldwell Rock BR ], most had the high end bags [ that cost more than my rest ], trick rifles, trick Hood reloading presses, $250+ powder measures, store bought wind flags, etc etc etc.

Mod, you will be happy to know I shoot a Savage 112 single shot with an SSS/Douglas 12 twist, no turn, 6mmBR bbl shooting 30 gr of Varget under Berger 80's. Right now it is still in a BVSS stock but I have a $215 Stockade Short Range BR stock on order. At the first event I used a Tasco 8-32 scope but I have a 36x Weaver now.

The original club rules for the 'Production' and 'Modified' rules were a bit strange. Wide open in some aspects and arbitrarily restrictive in other areas [ 2.5" forend width ? The other 'Modified' shooter had a McMillen Edge stock so his rifle didn't fit the rules ]. I have got the organizers permission to come up with our own 'Production' rules and this is going to be my proposal:

1: Mass produced action or single shot derivative by the same manufacturer.

2: No sleeves.

3: No muzzle brakes.

4: Only the original action to stock mounting system can be used [ sorry mystic ]

That is about it. I would like to require pre-loading [ no reloading at the event ] but you would have to grandfather in anybody who shot a production rifle before and loaded at the range back then.

My rules may seem too open but I have good reasons. First, if you require a factory chamber how do you police it? Same with an aftermarket trigger or real low trigger pull. Why have an arbitrary minimum rifle/scope weight? Why require a low powered scope? You are trying to attract new shooters. Don't put up any road blocks. If somebody wants to get their action trued, then let them. You still have to read the wind and shoot the rifle. The open rules remove any enforcement issues for the event organizers [ rule 5: No whining about the rules ].

I think there are lots of 'BR shooters' out there that would never enter an event because they feel their equipment is so outclassed by the genuine BR stuff. They have a very trick rifle with aftermarket everything but the action, but still it's not a Panda, Bat, etc. With my rules their rifle is suddenly a top shelf piece of equipment.

Enough for now. What do you guys think ?

You as well as the moderator are just wanting to create another "custom class". We already have plenty of those. When Hunter class was originally started, it was the intent of the creators to have a class where the typical shooter could use his varmint rifle to compete. Make a bunch of rules for the class and shooters will find ways to make the best shooting rifle possible. Have you guys seen a typical Hunter class rifle lately? The only difference between it and a full blown varmint class rifle is the width of the forend.

 

[rayjay]

Most people that are REALLY interested in BR type shooting don't use a stock rifle. Maybe they just like Remingtons or Savages or Sako's or Coopers or whatever [ kinda like the chevy vs ford vs mopar thing ]. Hang around on the Savage Shooters forums for a while. Group buys on aftermarket bbls, lots of custom stocks,

If you restrict it to a stock chamber and the original stock and a certain trigger pull, etc then you create headaches for the organizer. Or if a guy gets the most perfect stock rifle ever made then everybody else is screwed [ assuming everybody is equal at reading the wind, developing loads, practicing etc which of course they are not ].

 

[tightneck]

I don't think you will ever see a sanctioned factory class in either organization because the individual ranges don't want to turn shooters away. If you create a bunch of rules for a factory or a custom class, then you will have many rifles that aren't legal or just can't compete with the do-it-yourself semi-custom Savage. Why should the guy with a Rem 700 .243 have to shoot in the same class as a custom barreled Savage? Also, for the guy that thinks that bringing his factory rifle to a match will be looked down upon, nothing could be further from the truth. Not too many BR shooter started out shooting BR rifles, we all started with factory guns and couldn't get the accuracy we wanted, so we stepped up to the next level. I have people come up to me at the range all the time and check out my equipment and they look a little bewildered. They rarely say they couldn't afford all that stuff, what they say is that they don't shoot that good so all that equipment wouldn't help them. I don't think the reason there aren't more BR shooters than there are has anything to do with money. It has to do with intimidation. The factory rifle shooter see's guys shooting little groups and feel that they can't shoot well enough to compete with them. Truth be told, 90% of shooting tiny groups can be attributed to the rifle, the rest is up to good bench technique and reading windflags. What do you think Tony Boyer's winning percentage is? Everyone loses a lot more than they win, but you can't win unless you're willing to lose. This sport like all others, it's about comraderie and just having fun trying to shoot little groups or hit the X. Factory class is there at most ranges so that ANYONE can shoot and have a good time. We as BR shooters just hope that enough guys that shoot factory class will get hooked and join the ranks of the rest of us. Sure there are some who simply can't afford to shoot BR, they probably can't afford to go skiing, fishing, or whatever
other hobbies you can think up. Those people simply need to find a cheaper hobby to participate in.

 

[rayjay]

You are exactly right. That is why I only have 4 rules. Basically, anything with a factory action can compete. I could be totally wrong, but I think the national orgs are missing the boat. I think the time could be right for some sort of "Super Factory" class. Lots of mods allowed so that all the factories are on a level playing field.

The Savage will have no advantage other than cost.

Why are the long range shooting competitions generating so much interest and short range BR is stagnant or shrinking [ that is not a loaded question, I would really like to figure out why ].

I hearby claim a copyright on the "Super Factory" and "Super Sporter" class designation

Ray Brooks
Buford GA

 

[Cheechako]

Ray

Tightneck is right on about creating new classes and new rules. Once you do that, a new race begins. Guys will immediately start looking for ways to "improve" their equipment without going beyond the rules but before long they will be looking for rule changes. That is exactly what happened in the Hunter BR class. It started out as a bunch of guys shooting their Rem 700 and Win 70 and having fun but now you need a real BR rifle to even have a chance at winning.

Your 4 rules, BTW, are very similar to the original rules for Hunter Class back in the 1960s.

I seldom shoot short range BR anymore and shoot mostly long range,600 and 1000). The reason I do is because short range has become a one-caliber trigger pulling contest whereas long range is still a wide open, almost experimental, type of competition. If there are 50 shooters you will find 40 different cartridges and rifles. A new guy wanting to get into short range BR is immediately told to buy a 6PPC and a jug of N133 or he won't stand a chance. This is a turn off to a lot of shooters IMHO.

And unfortunately, there are a lot of old-time short range BR shooters who are simply not interested in doing anything to attract new shooters. You might recall a regular poster on this Forum not very long ago who considered Short Range Br as a "Pure" competition. If you so much as mentioned a cartridge other than a PPC he impolitely told you to start your own organiztion and leave NBRSA for those who understood what it was about. That kind of thing alone may be one of the biggest reasons you see so few new guys. Again, JMHO.

Ray

 

[Forum Boss]

My idea is not a "Savage Class". Personally there are a lot of things about Savages that I don't like. But I used that as a real world example of what can be put together for $1000. And at my club that's exactly what people are doing--they're building very competitive 300-600m rifles on Savage and hand-me-down Remington actions. The upgrades are often incremental--we'll see a guy with a new barrel at the start of the season, then maybe he adds an MBR stock midway through. Interestingly, once the guys have a good flat-bottomed heavy stock, tuned trigger and a nice barrel, quite often that's as far as the upgrades go. Reason? The darn things shoot really well and can group under 2" at 600 yards, so you Don't really have to do much more.

Getting back to short-range BR, I've discussed this with many of the club shooters and once they priced everything out, they just couldn't justify $2000+ for a competitive short-range BR rifle, when for half that they can have just as much fun shooting 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards. YMMV.

And as far as equipment rules go, we really only have one at our club's 600yd matches--nothing bigger than 300WM,or equivalent) and that's just to save wear and tear on the targets. I suppose if somebody showed up with a rail gun he'd get some grief, but we'd let him shoot. A recent match was won by a 13-year-old kid shooting a Savage with aftermarket 6BR barrel and stock. We've had 308 Palma rifles on the line and guys shooting 14-twist 220 swifts. Trust me, I'm all for an open door policy.

 

[tightneck]

You might recall a regular poster on this Forum not very long ago who considered Short Range Br as a "Pure" competition. If you so much as mentioned a cartridge other than a PPC he impolitely told you to start your own organiztion and leave NBRSA for those who understood what it was about.

I just could'nt guess who that might be.

 

[rayjay]

I could care less about a national class. I am just proposing a set of rules to draw the maximum number of local shooters to a non-sanctioned club event.

I was active in the SCCA back in the 80's and 90's so I am familiar with national organizations that, when it comes to rule making, they appear to have NO ONES best interest in mind.

 

[M700]

Please take this as a friendly comment... It truly is... I've lived a couple of miles from a very active BR club for 13 years and have watched a couple of matches. Although I really appreciate accuracy in a rifle, I've never bothered taking up the sport.

Why? To me it's about as exciting as watching granite erode.

Yes there is a challenge. It's a finesse sport. But it just doesn't appeal to me. Maybe when I'm so old and out-of-shape that the only way I can shoot is from a bench... Otherwise, nope.

Tactical matches yes! Highpower matches yes! IDPA yes! Hunting in many different forms yes! Hiking, biking, skiing, snowshoeing, fly fishing, kayaking... Yup. I'm all over it.

BR? No... Sorry. I need more action. Maybe if BR matches required a biathlon type run or ski between strings of fire or moving targets or reactive targets or something. Anything...

I certainly do appreciate the contributions to accuracy that you BR practitioners have given to the rest of us non-BR types though. Please soldier on and find some way to attract lots of shooters, so more accuracy advances can be made and I can buy even better barrels, stocks, loading dies and bullets!

Again - my comments are not intended to insult or minimize BR. I just don't see it as a particularly appealing shooting sport, and I don't think I'm alone.

Regards, Guy

 

[Fred Bohl]

Thanks again to those who have added replies - at least we are getting some more discussion and input thoughts to keep it going and hopefully we'll find a set of ideas to lead to progress.

To stir the pot a little more a few additional observations:

1. The long range,F-Class open and non sanctioned matches) seem to be either growing or at least holding attendance. They operate with minimal equipment rules and seem to feature rifles that are NBRSA Unlimited or IBS Heavy Gun type or as I like to think of them "use what you think will work for you".

2. Several of the old timers from Benchrest competition have advised and I agree that after a certain level of quality equipment, components and process we are all just shooting against our ability to read the wind and mirage. Those practiced skills and range conditions are what determine match winners.

3. For those who think of Short Range Br as a "Pure" competition or the ultimate refinement of equipment, look into what it takes to shoot a prairie dog at 2380 yards with 5 shots.