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Article on 308 Brass Used in Competition

71 page techy article. Most people don't want to read this stuff. Jump around to the areas you are interested in.

Covers many topics
1. Flame annealing.
2. Hardness change with repeated firing.
3. Neck turning related to annealing.
4. Most of the neck hardness increase is from firing, not sizing
5. Seating and bullet pulling force.
plus many other subjects.


http://www.nlrc.org/index_htm_files/Ryan%20Stevenson%20-%20Dissertation.pdf
 
Interesting stuff. Too bad the annealing process used and documented was so inefficient. It would have been more valuable (IMO) to use an annealing platform that allowed for precise placement of the cases in the flame and adjustable dwell time. The whole "paint some tempilaq and measure the time until it turns color using a hand held drill" is a little too seat-of-the-pants for my taste, in terms of compiling useful data.
 
Having gone through more basic forms of annealing, I also saw variable results.

After investing in a Bench Source and playing with temp and dwell, life is much better.

I cannot provide any molecular study but the feel is consistent and similar to factory. The groups are tight at LR.

About all I could ask for a loading step.

Jay, had a chance to shoot at Rattlesnake a few weeks back. What a great place to be humbled by the winds :-)

Look forward to visiting a few times next season.

Jerry
 
It would have nice if he used one of the popular annealing setups sold in the US. Maybe they don't have annealing machines in the UK? I was involved in metallurgical failure analysis for 45 years before I retired and I am not sure what to make of the article except you should buy something like the Giruad annealer if you want consistency. I always wondered if repeated annealing brought you back to the same hardness/tension level or if the annealing had some kind of accumulative affect. There tends to be an assumption that the brass hardens to a certain level and annealing always brings it back to some original hardness. The target is the best answer as to the benefit of any method.
 
Pretty funny, they had thousands of Pounds(UK) of testing equipment yet used a drill and a socket to anneal the cases....
 
Killshot said:
Pretty funny, they had thousands of Pounds(UK) of testing equipment yet used a drill and a socket to anneal the cases....

I can only assume that they used lab equipment in engineering dept. of a school of some kind.
Somehow I do not think that they would have shooting equipment..
 
Good day all

I am the "Tim Stewart" referred to in the 2 papers and I will happily explain the parameters, ambit and certain limitations of the exercise that we ran.
I will try and answer some specific question see above) and the rational and conclusions I drew from it - some post below

1. WHY
A fellow shooter requested help for a young student studying metallurgy that needed a decent project and I saw a chance to gain some knowledge that either confirmed, validated or caused me to question the various methods etc. of brass annealing processes.

2. WHO WAS INVOLVED
1. Tim Stewart - FTR shooter for Great Britain
2. Ryan Stephenson was a Master Student attaing a degree in "MENG Mechanical Engineering With Financial Management"
3. Project Supervisor: Dr Alexander Galloway :University of Glasgow (UK)
4. Stephen Cater, a researcher at TWI Technology Centre at the Advanced Manufacturing Park, Sheffield
"TWI is one of the world’s foremost independent research and technology organisations, with expertise in materials joining and engineering processes as applied in industry. TWI specialises in innovation, knowledge transfer and in solving problems across all aspects of manufacturing, fabrication and whole-life integrity management.
Established in Cambridge, UK in 1946, the organisation has gained a first-class reputation for service through its teams of respected consultants, scientists, engineers and support staff. Now, approaching 1000 employees, it works with over 1800 Industrial Member companies in 70 countries."
http://www.twi-global.com/

3. WHO FUNDED IT
The cost of cases, bullets, powder, primers, barrel and range cost for target sessions was funded by Tim Stewart - It was my own initiative as a shooter.
The actual lab work was funded by Univ of Glasgow and TWI
 
QUESTION 1 : Why this method

"Interesting stuff. Too bad the annealing process used and documented was so inefficient. It would have been more valuable (IMO) to use an annealing platform that allowed for precise placement of the cases in the flame and adjustable dwell time. The whole "paint some tempilaq and measure the time until it turns color using a hand held drill" is a little too seat-of-the-pants for my taste, in terms of compiling useful data."

I could have pursued and "industrial solution" like a Benchmark and / or Giruard BUT

1. I had 2 months to complete the project - from 15 Dec till End of Feb - Winter in UK - plus the thesis had a deadline
- from concept of project to approval by the university
- To order and wait for delivery of said machines in UK at that time was 4 to 6 months
2. A very high % of shooters are NOT prepared to layout the money required - due to cost or the volume of shooting doesn't warrant that level of expenditure.
- by testing the "entry level" methods they can derive a meaningful result.
- In the UK alot of shooters literally do not have the space for a solution that has big footprint
3. I knew what variables I could test with a valid conclusions in the time
- to get access to the skills and equipment was an opportunity I did not want to forgo
 
Hey Tim-

Thanks for the clarification(s). :-) I can certainly understand the time constraints involved, but I'll respectfully disagree a bit with your 2nd point. I think the only result that came out of that method was that "it doesn't really work as well as you think it does", because it's too subjective. I couldn't say about space/footprint, but a Giraud (for example) doesn't really take up much more space than a hand held drill and water pan, although I'll stipulate as to the utility of a hand drill vs. a Giraud. I think it's much easier to derive backwards from a known, objective state (i.e., a machine with precision timing) than an "entry level" method that is highly subjective.

My grumbling is more generally directed at the state (lack of) of actual, real information out there in the world on "precision" annealing, in terms of dwell times. I sort of see this as a golden, missed opportunity to really produce data that could have been derived to multiple annealing methods. That's all.

Other than that, I read the entire document and thought it was pretty interesting. Particularly the high magnification photos that showed the changes in grain structure of the brass.
 
Hi Jay

Not an issue mate - you have a valid view i just did NOT have the time to pursue the "objective"
- BUT let me expand with some additional information and maybe I can add some of my knowledge .. backed by the paper's findings!
As per your tag line "One test is worth a thousand opinions"

"I think the only result that came out of that method was that "it doesn't really work as well as you think it does", because it's too subjective. I couldn't say about space/footprint, but a Giraud (for example) doesn't really take up much more space than a hand held drill and water pan, although I'll stipulate as to the utility of a hand drill vs. a Giraud. I think it's much easier to derive backwards from a known, objective state (i.e., a machine with precision timing) than an "entry level" method that is highly subjective.
My grumbling is more generally directed at the state (lack of) of actual, real information out there in the world on "precision" annealing, in terms of dwell times. I sort of see this as a golden, missed opportunity to really produce data that could have been derived to multiple annealing methods. That's all. "


The FIRST ANNEALING
- using templiaq was effectively 9 seconds for my flame / setup ...
- and frankly in the cold winter of my garage with 300 plus cases
- under time pressures I worked like a shooter just "chunking through"
Was a replication of typical of the variations you see on the internet regardless of process

The SECOND ANNEALING process
- was set at 11 seconds and
- was an specific attempt to "tighten up"so I was much more diligent in both the timing consistency and the flame placement

This was a original objective of the exercise AND based on the discussions with Ryan on the interim findings of Annealing Step 1
... You can see the difference in the quality of results - the 2nd Annealing showed a much uniform outcome.
See graphic on Page 43 of the paper!

There is NO doubt the "Bench/Giruad" option is superior ...
BUT some focus and effort by a reloader can achieve a valid, valuable, viable and consistent outcome with a £40 dollar setup!

As an aside it was pure chance that the Small Vickers test on the new brass happened to start off at +- 100
And in my flame setup - it effectively transpired that 10 Small Vickers points was 1 second

Here is an example of the process as per the FIRST ANNEAL attitude
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUzUsHx9VCE
 

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Webster said:
71 page techy article. Most people don't want to read this stuff. Jump around to the areas you are interested in.

Covers many topics
1. Flame annealing.
2. Hardness change with repeated firing.
3. Neck turning related to annealing.
4. Most of the neck hardness increase is from firing, not sizing
5. Seating and bullet pulling force.
plus many other subjects.


http://www.nlrc.org/index_htm_files/Ryan%20Stevenson%20-%20Dissertation.pdf

The full paper - for those wanting the techie stuff and more photos ...
http://www.nlrc.org/index_htm_files/Ryan%20Stevenson%20-%20Dissertation.pdf

There is also a 2nd summary paper - for those wanting the crux ...
http://www.nlrc.org/index_htm_files/Ryan%20Stevenson%20-%20Technical%20Paper.pdf

Tim
 
EagerNoSkill said:
Hi Jay

Not an issue mate - you have a valid view i just did NOT have the time to pursue the "objective"
- BUT let me expand with some additional information and maybe I can add some of my knowledge .. backed by the paper's findings!
As per your tag line "One test is worth a thousand opinions"

...

Thanks, that makes more sense to me now.
 
Apart from annealing, by the way I use the "torch & drill" method with good results, it seems the everywhere suggested neck turning/skimming up to touching the case's head could be dangerous for brass life.

Is therefore recommended turning/skimming case's neck and stop before collet/head junction?
 
EagerNoSkill said:
........ snip ..........
I could have pursued and "industrial solution" like a Benchmark and / or Giruard BUT

1. I had 2 months to complete the project - from 15 Dec till End of Feb - Winter in UK - plus the thesis had a deadline
- from concept of project to approval by the university
- To order and wait for delivery of said machines in UK at that time was 4 to 6 months
2. A very high % of shooters are NOT prepared to layout the money required - due to cost or the volume of shooting doesn't warrant that level of expenditure.
.......... snip .............

Thanks for publishing your results. I found them quite interesting and informative.

I studied metallurgy just after we transitioned from the stone age to the bronze age, but when the accuracy bug bit me late in life I remembered enough of my education to realize that if one is going to anneal, it should be done in a consistent and repeatable way. I immediately rejected the cordless drill and hand held torch method as not suitable in spite of the fact that plenty of folks use it.

Like many in the UK, I couldn't justify spending a lot of money either, so I built a machine following the now famous "Skip" design. It was inexpensive, quick to build, and I believe it works as well as the best of the case annealing machines and better than some of the commercial products, even some very expensive ones.

Mine is not too large, it's light and easy to store, and easy to operate; fun actually. It's the least difficult step in hand loading and I find that annealing every time is quite convenient for me.

Here's a picture of my machine. Since this photo was taken, I added a proximity switch on the feed ramp to control the feed drum motor so that it stays in sync with the annealing pan motor. I also put in an electronic case counter just for the heck of it.

_DSC3271
 
There is a lot of ongoing discussion in the UK right now over annealing machine supply. Most people here who do it have bought the Bench Mark, but as Tim points out, supply isn't quick and it is a relatively expensive option by the time we get it, pay for carriage and the UK government slaps on import duties and the standard 20% 'VAT' (a national indeed Europe wide sales tax).

The hopper fed Giraud and similar annealers cannot be legally exported from the USA thanks to ITAR it seems. Some US State Department bureaucrat has deemed that the magazine puts them into the definition of high volume ammunition manufacturing machines and so Giraud says it cannot supply us or anybody else outside of the US (unless it is a government approved contract).

Some people here have been working on home produced devices for the last one or two years, and I'm currently using a pre-production prototype of one. The big problem is that of meeting the CE certification requirements for new electrical equipment, in particular the the issue of proving there is no interference with telecommunications transmission and reception. It's the electronic timing circuits that have to be tested and certified as meeting the regulations. The problem is that getting the testing and certification done is very expensive, so a small scale garage or spare bedroom based maker producing a few units a month would lose any profit for several years' worth of production.

Ironically, Bench Mark or any other US manufacturer of annealers (or any other electrical bits and pieces) have to obtain CE certification to legally export their goods to us, and even the tiniest of home producers has to do likewise, but in a global Internet linked community, it's perfectly legal for our citizens to buy non-CE'd stuff direct from a foreign source as a personal import, and some such American annealers have just arrived here. As they're hopper fed and therefore as I understand it from what Giraud says, these may be illegal exports under ITAR, but that's the manufacturer's issue not one at this end. But just in case they are ITAR-breakers I won't quote names as I'm not in the business of maybe creating trouble for people doing a bit of simple business. (Maybe the Giraud falls foul of ITAR because of its substantial hopper capacity and these smaller machines stacking a smaller number of cases are not affected by the large scale manufacture clause - who knows?)

Having only just been made aware of Tim's research student work, I'm looking forward to having a good delve through it. Great work Tim! I've already been committed to a simpler non metallurgical practical test when I get around to doing a small rifle primer follow-up test series to my earlier large-scale one with 308 and LR primers.

This will use 308 Win again, likely with the 167gn Lapua Scenar and Viht N150 (I have a lot of both spare and won't ever use this bullet in future competition shooting) in Lapua Palma brass that was prepped for high-level FTR competition. All same lot and same number (three) of firings, 150 cases. Necks will be annealed beforehand and those fired twice during the tests annealed between firings. As before, 2 foulers + 15 rounds results based on MV, ES, and SD values and spreads using a MagnetoSpeed V3.

It was suggested that as annealing / neck hardness levels primarily affect neck tension where variabilities in turn affect velocity consistency, do a multiple firing test and see if the readings deteriorate. So, I'll find what looks a good combination for MV consistency in the primer tests and take 30 or 40 pre-weighed charges to the range plus a load of handloading gear and repeatedly load and fire 5 cases to see if 'things go downhill' after several firings without annealing. To be really meaningful, another quintet from the same case-lot should be repeatedly loaded and fired with annealing between firings. Since the annealer is portable, that is feasible, but will make it a much longer and more involved test, and have some health and safety issues needing virtual sole use of the covered firing point etc. So, being practical if that add-on happens it'd be a separate test series on a different day.
 
Good information. Thanks for the effort and for bringing this to us.

The variation in metal content is interesting as far as brass makers' Q/C goes. If this variation occurs with Lapua, the acknowledged "masters", makes you wonder about the other brass that trickles thru our hands.



RMD
 
WOW, Ryan Stephenson did us all a great favor. He pretty conclusively nailed down the debate of whether annealing does any good. I for one have been annealing every time with a drill socket, but just this week I ordered all the parts outlined in the link that Mozella gave me, so I'm already on my way to building my own Skippy's annealer. I'm comforted that I am on the right path.

If anyone else is interested in building their own annealer here is the link to the materials http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/434088_DIY_Annealing_Machine.html

...and here's the link to Skippy's video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-C-i0Kr2jU

Kindest regards,

Joe

PS Webster, thanks for posting, it is appreciated.
 

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