Are You Using The Neck Expander Button?

[bigedp51]

I realize that forster utilizes a slightly different approach to expanding by raising the ball to a higher point in the die so as to in theory perform the expansion while the case is still being supported , I don't necessarily buy into the fact that the case is fully supported as obviously if the case is on its way out of the die it can in no way be truly supported without getting stuck once the ball makes contact.

The neck of the case is still inside the neck of the resizing die when the expander enters the case neck and "IS" fully supported. And out of all the type dies I have I get the least amount of resizing runout with this type die.

Forster Full Length Sizing Die Cutaway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgIfzsH8N6k

When you think about the shell holder and any dings, dents in the case rim and extractor groove the Forster die does not let the case tilt in the shell holder on the down stroke of the ram. Therefore the neck of the case is supported by the die and the base of the case is also held straight with the axis of the die.

This is not criticism leveled at you or anyone else "BUT" with the Forster full length die I get less neck runout than with a neck sizing bushing die.

I experimented with all the dies pictured below, using a Lee collet die, expander mandrels etc. and the Forster spindle in my RCBS full length die produced the least amount of neck runout. And the odd thing after reading all your posts is the bushing die produced the "MOST" neck runout.

All my rifles are off the shelf factory rifles, we have the neck sizers vs the full length resizers and people with custom made rifle used in competition. Therefore the OPs question is a "loaded" question depending on the type rifle and where it will be used.

 

[CatShooter]

Anything you use inside the neck after sizing will alter what you wanted to do. If you have a donut, then it needs to be dealt with in the case prep stages, but once the cases are like you want, then keep stuff out of the neck.

CatShooter, would you "expand" on the statement above because in a earlier posting you said you use a type "M" die to expand your necks. I associate type "M" dies with seating cast bullets, but I assume using the type "M" die with jacketed bullets has something to do with runout while seating bullets. Please explain, I'm not being critical.

"CatShooter, would you "expand" on the statement... "

If you were paid $5 for each pun, what would you be doing??

Punance for your fins

The "M" dies were designed for cast bullets, but a lot of guys I know use them for case prep for jacked bullets (cuz I tol' 'em to )

If you shoot an odd calibre that doesn't have cool bushing sizing dies made for it, like the .225 Winchester (a cool case), then you are fook-ked.

I neck size such a case without the built in expander, and then use a "M" die, which had been carefully adjusted so the neck runs up the straight section, and just kisses the tiny ramp, and then stops.

No need to chamfer (which I hate to do to good cases).

If the "M" die is a little too large for the "tension (gag), then I put the mandrel in a 1/4" drill and bring the diameter down with some #400 Silly Cone carbide paper, wrapped around a flat thing like a scientifically flat popsicle stick.

 

['Freak]

What if neck wall thickness was not uniformed and during sizing the exterior of the case body and neck is conformed to the perfectly concentric interior of the perfect size die, where else is there for the thicker neck wall area to go but to reveal itself on the interior neck wall, offsetting the neck’s internal center point and doing same for any projectile that ends up seated within?

 

[CatShooter]

What if neck wall thickness was not uniformed and during sizing the exterior of the case body and neck is conformed to the perfectly concentric interior of the perfect size die, where else is there for the thicker neck wall area to go but to reveal itself on the interior neck wall, offsetting the neck’s internal center point and doing same for any projectile that ends up seated within?

Huh??? ???

What are you talking about?

 

[bigedp51]

What if neck wall thickness was not uniformed and during sizing the exterior of the case body and neck is conformed to the perfectly concentric interior of the perfect size die, where else is there for the thicker neck wall area to go but to reveal itself on the interior neck wall, offsetting the neck’s internal center point and doing same for any projectile that ends up seated within?

Huh??? ???

What are you talking about?

He just said on a unturned case neck the defects are pushed inside the necks, effecting bullet alignment with the bore.

If I can understand "Punance for your fins " and I'm not even Catholic, what's wrong with your reading comprehension.

Or are you saying the poster has a peach inspediment caused by drain bamage.

I mean his statement wasn't written in Sanskrit like fguffy's postings.

CatShooter you need to reread his posting and leave nothing "unturned" in your reading. :

 

[Lapua40X]

I assume that somewhere in your brass prep you have turned your necks, correct?

Yes, Joe. Necks are turned to eliminate neck thickness inconsistencies and to achieve the neck tension/clearances I want.

 

[CatShooter]

What if neck wall thickness was not uniformed and during sizing the exterior of the case body and neck is conformed to the perfectly concentric interior of the perfect size die, where else is there for the thicker neck wall area to go but to reveal itself on the interior neck wall, offsetting the neck’s internal center point and doing same for any projectile that ends up seated within?

Huh??? ???

What are you talking about?

He just said on a unturned case neck the defects are pushed inside the necks, effecting bullet alignment with the bore.

If I can understand "Punance for your fins " and I'm not even Catholic, what's wrong with your reading comprehension.

Or are you saying the poster has a peach inspediment caused by drain bamage.

I mean his statement wasn't written in Sanskrit like fguffy's postings.

CatShooter you need to reread his posting and leave nothing "unturned" in your reading. :

You made me laugh, you Silly Duck!!

Nothing is wrong with my reading... I gots edu-ma-ja-cation!!

Does anyone talk like that to people?? Not hardly, so what's the purpose other than to sound like something he is not.

When I did my two years of hard time at Columbia University, there were two things I learned in the first week (cuz I did them both, and got intellectually knocked on my asss.

1 - Never use a $2 word when two 5¢ words will do as well (or better), it makes you look like a idiot.

2 - the more verbal fluff there is in a "written paper" the less meat there is on the bones.

---

If a cylinder has a non-coaxial variation in wall thickness - id est, the axis of the outside wall is not coaxial with the axis of the inside wall... you can not push one in, or the other out, in relationship to the other, with any type of expanding device... they always stay in the same relationship, unless you turn them, which does nothing but relocate the axis of the outside wall, so it is coaxial with the axis of the inside wall.


... or if you prefer:

Irish...

Má tá sorcóir éagsúlacht neamh-coaxial i tiús bhalla - est id, an ais ar an bhalla taobh amuigh nach bhfuil coaxial leis an ais ar an bhalla taobh istigh ... Ní féidir leat a bhrú amháin i, nó an duine eile amach, i gcaidreamh leis an ceann eile, le haon chineál feiste leathnú ... fanacht siad i gcónaí ar an gcaidreamh céanna, ach amháin má chasann tú iad, a dhéanann aon rud ach a athlonnú an ais ar an bhalla taobh amuigh, mar sin tá sé coaxial leis an ais ar an bhalla taobh istigh.


Vietnamise (an up-coming group in the reloading community)

Nếu một xi lanh có một sự thay đổi không đồng trục có chiều dày tường - id est, trục của các bức tường bên ngoài được không đồng trục với trục của bức tường bên trong ... bạn không thể đẩy một trong, hay khác ra, trong mối quan hệ với khác, với bất kỳ loại thiết bị mở rộng ... họ luôn ở trong mối quan hệ tương tự, trừ khi bạn bật chúng, mà không làm gì nhưng di chuyển trục của bức tường bên ngoài, do đó, nó là đồng trục với trục của bức tường bên trong.


Chinese...

如果一个圆柱体具有非同轴度的偏差壁厚-id est，外墙的轴不是与里面的轴同轴墙......，你不能推之一，或其他外，在与对方的关系，与任何类型的扩展设备......他们永远留在同一的关系，除非你把它们，而不执行任何操作，但搬迁外墙外轴所以它是与内部轴同轴墙。

Broken Latin...

Si a cylindercus est a non - palpo variation in parietis densitas id est , axis of foris parietis est non palpo per axis of inside parietis. vos can non pulsus unus in , vel ceterus sicco , in affinitas ut ceterus , per ullus typus of impendo fabrica. they usquequaque subsisto in idem eadem idem affinitas , nisi vos verto lemma , quod does nusquam tamen relocate axis of foris parietis , sic is est palpo per axis of inside parietis.

Or, if you are a bit hungover and fell on your head...


˙llɐʍ ǝpᴉsuᴉ ǝɥʇ ɟo sᴉxɐ ǝɥʇ ɥʇᴉʍ lɐᴉxɐoɔ sᴉ ʇᴉ os 'llɐʍ ǝpᴉsʇno ǝɥʇ ɟo sᴉxɐ ǝɥʇ ǝʇɐɔolǝɹ ʇnq ƃuᴉɥʇou sǝop ɥɔᴉɥʍ 'ɯǝɥʇ uɹnʇ noʎ ssǝlun 'dᴉɥsuoᴉʇɐlǝɹ ǝɯɐs ǝɥʇ uᴉ ʎɐʇs sʎɐʍlɐ ʎǝɥʇ ˙˙˙ǝɔᴉʌǝp ƃuᴉpuɐdxǝ ɟo ǝdʎʇ ʎuɐ ɥʇᴉʍ 'ɹǝɥʇo ǝɥʇ oʇ dᴉɥsuoᴉʇɐlǝɹ uᴉ 'ʇno ɹǝɥʇo ǝɥʇ ɹo 'uᴉ ǝuo ɥsnd ʇou uɐɔ noʎ ˙˙˙llɐʍ ǝpᴉsuᴉ ǝɥʇ ɟo sᴉxɐ ǝɥʇ ɥʇᴉʍ lɐᴉxɐoɔ ʇou sᴉ llɐʍ ǝpᴉsʇno ǝɥʇ ɟo sᴉxɐ ǝɥʇ 'ʇsǝ pᴉ - ssǝuʞɔᴉɥʇ llɐʍ uᴉ uoᴉʇɐᴉɹɐʌ lɐᴉxɐoɔ-uou ɐ sɐɥ ɹǝpuᴉlʎɔ ɐ ɟI

... how's that for pompous bullskat

 

[Joe R]

Silly Rabbits

Lets all be friends and not try to impress one another with our brilliant intellect by attacking each other. We're all friends here.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

['Freak]

Nutin, in six diffent langriges, an figgered ta mabe learn sumtin hear…

 

[Lapua40X]

Now I know why I didn't see Catfish in Latin class.

 

[Linko]

Geeze, being a newbee reloader is tough figuring out how to reload with you guys

This stuff is kind of like what is the best moror oil. But.. there are some basics that I am trying to extract from books and the posters here. Like case length needs to be checked.

Here is my plan, hope you guys are gentle.

I purchased three dies, Forster FL sizing, Micrometer seating die and a Lee universal decaping die. I will be buying a Forster Co-Ax press when they are available again.

I plan to decap, then drum tumble clean, check the flash hole for burrs, clean the primer pocket and then use a wilson case gauge for length.

Then use the Forster FL die and then add powder and seat the bullet.

Use the Hornady OAL gauge for ogive length and compare to the rifle oal.

Than readjust the seating accordingly.

How does this plan sound? This will be my FIRST reloaded cartridge.

 

[djtjr]

On guns where i turn necks i lose the expander ball on good shooters but guns that i am not turning necks i leave the expander ball in with bushing dies. New brass gets expanded with a sinclair turning mandrel which is sized slightly below the expanding mandrel and gives me almost exactly .002 neck tension every time right out of the box and gets rid of many imperfections in the necks, theis leaves me ending up being the same tension as a busing .002-3 thousandths below loaded neck od with the button in and pulled through. Again this is on unturned brass. For the unturned brass i rather have any inconsistency on the outside rather than the inside though if only going .002 on the bushing there is very negligible contact when drawing the expander ball out of the brass, but why i have decided to leave it in.

 

[ireload2]

For some of these tasks I use a Redding .308 Type S Bushing Neck Die
This die is fat enough and short enough to work on about 40 different cartridges.

I don't turn many necks so I use a bushing that takes the neck ID bout .002 undersize. Then I use a button to expand the neck maybe .0005 (one half thousandth or 5 tenths as tool makers say).
When expanding the neck is it unlikely that you will expand it very far off center. Even if all the expansion went to one side it could only move off center .00025 which is not much.

The reason I do not turn many neck is related to the size of most chambers. They are way larger than a loaded round. When the case is fired the neck get expanded even more with a turned case.
Example I have a Steyr made 1895 Dutch Mannlicher in 6.5X53R. It takes a .284 bushing to properly size reformed .303 British brass. But the chamber neck is .300. That is a whopping .016 expansion when fired. If I turned the necks there would be more expansion. The only way to improve this might be to find some thicker brass but there is no brass that I know of that is .015 to .018 neck thickness.

Where I do turn necks is for a .263 neck 6X47 Rem 40XBR. This set up is a joy to shoot. There is no real expansion making easy to size the necks .001.

 

[dedogs]

Ir2, would you please explain this statement? Are you referring to most FACTORY rifles or most rifles in general?

 

[CatShooter]

If you have a factory chamber, and you are concerned, you can skim the neck for a ~80% clean-up without sacrificing anything in the neck.

Just remember that annealing is more important in a factory neck, than it is on a no-turn neck (case life wise).

 

[dannyjbiggs]

I ask this question every year with my F-Class league buddies, and it seems to be 50/50.

Back in the 90's, the 3 die sets (with a body size only die) were the rage, and you could body size/bump without touching the neck. Supposedly your neck would expand to conform your chamber. The same was true, vise versa for body sizing, you could neck size, and leave the body alone until you had tight bolt lift. But you could always feel a couple (or a few) bullets seat differently when not using the neck button...thus a "tight neck" that would give you an excuse for a bad shot. :'(

It seems to me that once I put mine back in...all my dies, all the neck tension problems went away. All my bullets seat like butter when using the correct bushing. But I still hears guys that don't use a bushing say, "I had a couple bullets seat hard". They say using the button overworks the brass... :

How many of you guys DO or DON'T use your neck expander buttons when sizing during case prep?

And what is your reason for doing it either way?

Well...please DON'T ASK IT AGAIN NEXT year , I'm a little bit cross-eyed from reading all this thru. ;D

Danny Biggs

 

[Gabe22BR]

Whidden dies have different size expanders available. They are really nice dies..

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

If you are using a f/l busing die sizing die, the first thing you should do with the expander ball and stem is remove it, and the second thing you should do is throw it in the trash.

 

[CatShooter]

If you are using a f/l busing die sizing die, the first thing you should do with the expander ball and stem is remove it, and the second thing you should do is throw it in the trash.

I NEVER throw reloading stuff in the trash - I used to, but always found a need for it two years later... even if it was just that I was selling the thing it came from.

 

[mattri]

This may be a really stupid question but that's never stopped me before:

I'm using a Redding FL sizer die for a factory rifle. When setting the die up to size the neck and bump the shoulder .002 the case enters the die over the expander with some tension but coming back over the expander is VERY tough.

Would removing the expander ball and decapping separately remedy this?

Will I need to turn necks?

Would a bushing die be better? Or a neck sizer/body die combo?