are wilson full length bushing dies better than redding

[Peebles24]

I have the whidden click adjust full length bushing die and matching micrometer seater in 6.5 creedmoor. Checking my run out i am .002 or less. I am pleased with them. For 250 after a bushing they should be that good or better though. I am using a hornady lock n load classic press so the hornqdy lock bushing may give a bit to the run out.

 

[hawkeyeshoooer]

So you look to lee and dillon for precision?

Yes I certainly do.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I came from the tool and die industry and have a hard time getting my head wrapped around how any die with a round hole and a floating bushing creates runout. I can certainly understand that some have better tolerances, sizes and finishes but I've not experienced the aforementioned and just don't understand how it's even possible. Been doing this for years and don't get it! The case floats in the shell holder, that can float in the ram(to some degree) and the bushing floats in the die. What have I been missing?

 

[Peebles24]

I came from the tool and die industry and have a hard time getting my head wrapped around how any die with a round hole and a floating bushing creates runout. I can certainly understand that some have better tolerances, sizes and finishes but I've not experienced the aforementioned and just don't understand how it's even possible. Been doing this for years and don't get it! The case floats in the shell holder, that can float in the ram(to some degree) and the bushing floats in the die. What have I been missing?

.002 is a very small amount and I'm not saying the die causes it. But if you have runout what does cause it?

 

[JRS]

.002 is a very small amount and I'm not saying the die causes it. But if you have runout what does cause it?

+/- tolerances.

 

[Johnny_V]

I came from the tool and die industry and have a hard time getting my head wrapped around how any die with a round hole and a floating bushing creates runout. I can certainly understand that some have better tolerances, sizes and finishes but I've not experienced the aforementioned and just don't understand how it's even possible. Been doing this for years and don't get it! The case floats in the shell holder, that can float in the ram(to some degree) and the bushing floats in the die. What have I been missing?

I agree 100%. Concentricity has more to do with the guns chamber and loading procedures than with the die. If a die is made off center, then I would agree, but in this day of CNC equipment I would believe it's a rarity to get a die made in the last 10 or so years to be off center. This of course is just my opinion.

 

[JFrank]

Gents
Ever wonder why Wilson doesn't make concentricity gauges.
J

 

[BRGUY]

I started setting my dies to "float" in the press, and at least for me, that has eliminated the vast majority of run out!

I just now went to my reloading room and pulled out 7 different loaded cartridges, from 3 different calibers, and got the following run out:

.0003
.00015
.00015
.0001
.0001
.0002
.00015

With those big 7/8-14 threads on the press AND dies, when you lock the die to the press, you will very seldom ever get things in perfect alignment, and about all you can do is hope for the best!

BUT! By allowing the die to "float" freely on the press, you have a much greater chance of holding the case in alignment during the sizing operation, and case necks are far less likely to be pulled off center on the upstroke.

Now, after having said all that, if your dies are cut off center or your press is worn out, or if your press ram is bent or otherwise not centered, then nothing short of replacing your press is going to help...

 

[JFrank]

I started setting my dies to "float" in the press, and at least for me, that has eliminated the vast majority of run out!

I just now went to my reloading room and pulled out 7 different loaded cartridges, from 3 different calibers, and got the following run out:

.0003
.00015
.00015
.0001
.0001
.0002
.00015

With those big 7/8-14 threads on the press AND dies, when you lock the die to the press, you will very seldom ever get things in perfect alignment, and about all you can do is hope for the best!

BUT! By allowing the die to "float" freely on the press, you have a much greater chance of holding the case in alignment during the sizing operation, and case necks are far less likely to be pulled off center on the upstroke.

Now, after having said all that, if your dies are cut off center or your press is worn out, or if your press ram is bent or otherwise not centered, then nothing short of replacing your press is going to help...

Question
How do you maintain consistent seating depth with a loose or not tighten down die?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Question
How do you maintain consistent seating depth with a loose or not tighten down die?

Seating depth is a whole different ballgame. Most use an inline die which has nothing to do with the press. Some shooters purposely wear out their sizing press so it has plenty of slack in the ram so the die does all the work. Jackie schmidt comes to mind here- his partner presses he loads his br rounds with rattle when he raises the ram. Dont do anything to influence the case going into the die. The die is the only thing that needs to be precise you dont want a press having any say so in how the die works in sizing.

 

[snert]

All I keep thinking when I read these concentricity threads (besides "pass the Rolaids') is the immutable fact that the brass is the ever-changing variable in this rabbit hole. It gets "hot swaged" in the chamber, then (sometimes) annealed, then cold swaged in a die. And every time it changes. Besides that, it is seldom perfect from the beginning.

I guess I understand for winning BR shooters why this "matters", but the air is so rarified there, when you can "call" a misaligned non-concentric cartridge on the target and not the hundreds of other factors...wind, light, bug in the path...

Now don't get me wrong...I see the fun in these exercises, but at some point, usually early on, it just makes me want to shake my head and walk away.

Donning flame suit as we speak...

 

[Richard Coody]

All I keep thinking when I read these concentricity threads (besides "pass the Rolaids') is the immutable fact that the brass is the ever-changing variable in this rabbit hole. It gets "hot swaged" in the chamber, then (sometimes) annealed, then cold swaged in a die. And every time it changes. Besides that, it is seldom perfect from the beginning.

I guess I understand for winning BR shooters why this "matters", but the air is so rarified there, when you can "call" a misaligned non-concentric cartridge on the target and not the hundreds of other factors...wind, light, bug in the path...

Now don't get me wrong...I see the fun in these exercises, but at some point, usually early on, it just makes me want to shake my head and walk away.

Donning flame suit as we speak...

obviously you don't have a rifle that shoots in the 1's and 2's. if you are not looking for another 0.10 reduction in group size all tbese advanced reloading tecniques are completely unnecessary. fun if you enjoy that kind of thing but you probably won't see much of a change on your target.

 

[BRGUY]

Seating depth is a whole different ballgame. Most use an inline die which has nothing to do with the press. Some shooters purposely wear out their sizing press so it has plenty of slack in the ram so the die does all the work. Jackie schmidt comes to mind here- his partner presses he loads his br rounds with rattle when he raises the ram. Dont do anything to influence the case going into the die. The die is the only thing that needs to be precise you dont want a press having any say so in how the die works in sizing.

Correct!

I use the same reamer that is used to cut the chamber, to make an in-line seating die. This way, I know that when bullets are seated, they are seated as close to perfect as they can be...

Since I shoot a 22 B-R, a 6mm B-R, a 7mm B-R and a 30 B-R, all I have to change out is cap and bullet seating stem. With the size die, I use one die for all calibers, and just change out the neck bushings...

 

[snert]

obviously you don't have a rifle that shoots in the 1's and 2's. if you are not looking for another 0.10 reduction in group size all tbese advanced reloading tecniques are completely unnecessary. fun if you enjoy that kind of thing but you probably won't see much of a change on your target.

Ahh..
Wrong, I do in fact. I didn't say they were unnecessary...I simply said most people are not going to be able to shoot (or own guns that can't) tell the difference. I also think that much of this discussion is belly button inspection. (so apparently it ain''t that obvious. Don't make the assumption I don't have a gun that will shoot, and don't know how to shoot it.)

I guess maybe I should point out that the vast majority of the guys who talk about dies and concentricity (maybe not here but where I happen to have heard it a lot) are typified by the guy complaining to me that his dies were giving him .005 "runout". After some pointed questions I learned he was shooting a Model 43 Winchester in 22 Hornet with a 4x period Weaver. He really should have tossed that C-gauge in the bucket and bought bullets instead. (I just buttoned up the suit and donned my helmet.....)

 

[Richard Coody]

Ahh..
Wrong, I do in fact. I didn't say they were unnecessary...I simply said most people are not going to be able to shoot (or own guns that can't) tell the difference. I also think that much of this discussion is belly button inspection. (so apparently it ain''t that obvious. Don't make the assumption I don't have a gun that will shoot, and don't know how to shoot it.)

I guess maybe I should point out that the vast majority of the guys who talk about dies and concentricity (maybe not here but where I happen to have heard it a lot) are typified by the guy complaining to me that his dies were giving him .005 "runout". After some pointed questions I learned he was shooting a Model 43 Winchester in 22 Hornet with a 4x period Weaver. He really should have tossed that C-gauge in the bucket and bought bullets instead. (I just buttoned up the suit and donned my helmet.....)

well you and i do agree. the last thing your average shooter should be worrying about is consentricity, or weighing powder to the single kernel or neck turning. buy components and get some serious trigger time. learn about what effects brass concentricity and neck tension before jumping to conclusion. we deal with 100's of variables during the reloading activity. only with experience can you find what works for you.

 

[Dave Hull]

I've come up in this game through bench rest, into silhouette and now in full-bore.
I've always used Wilson because the old guys that taught me were using Wilson .. and I've never wondered about anything else

so going to start reloading for my 6.5 cm and was going to buy a die set. i was sort of stuck with redding on some other calibers but i kind of have my choice now. i just want something i can buy that is already in stock rather than special order a custom die. i have experienced getting more runout than i like using my redding type s full length dies,,,,it always happens when the neck is sized down by the bushing.

how do the whiddens and wilsons OR ANY OTHER BRAND compare to the same type of redding die

i really like the one stroke, do everything aspect of the fl bushing die.

 

[snakepit]

I just now went to my reloading room and pulled out 7 different loaded cartridges, from 3 different calibers, and got the following run out:

.0003
.00015
.00015
.0001
.0001
.0002
.00015

I think you have one too many zeros in each of your 7 examples.

 

[Logbuilder35]

I came from the tool and die industry and have a hard time getting my head wrapped around how any die with a round hole and a floating bushing creates runout. I can certainly understand that some have better tolerances, sizes and finishes but I've not experienced the aforementioned and just don't understand how it's even possible. Been doing this for years and don't get it! The case floats in the shell holder, that can float in the ram(to some degree) and the bushing floats in the die. What have I been missing?

Amen

 

[Webphut]

I know this thread is kind of old, but thought it might be some positive personal experience/opinion. My grand father taught my dad how to reload using one of LE Wilson’s first dies. My dad taught me on LE Wilson dies. I am teaching our daughters with LE Wilson dies and also a couple of the RCBS dies too. She, age 11 at the time, told me herself she liked the LE Wilson better. I have only dealt with them over the phone when ordering or have questions. Always the same gal. Very professional, never have let me down yet. There has not been anything that LE Wilson has not been able to make for me as of yet. Most the old stuff they do not make anymore, their case neck turners for example, they can still make the parts for them. Just need to speak to the gal on the phone and I will be surprised if she can not get you the end result you want.

 

[Gman]

I've been using Wilson neck bushing sizers for over 10 years. Then after 3 or 4 firings, I would size the case with a Redding body die. (2 step process) Never had any runout issues. All bullet seating is done with Wilson micrometer top seaters.

But I have now switched over to the Wilson FL bushing sizer dies (6BR & 6.5x47L) and my cases have zero runout. I have had great luck with Wilson products, so I don't see any reason to change. Forgot to mention, that I ONLY use Wilson bushings also.