Arbor press with Force indicator

[JERRYHM]

Arbor press with force indicator, WAS this buy a waste of money?

Here is today's data for a 15 shot test.

A 40 shot test this morning with a different 284 produced similar results.


October 18, 2010

Bat action, 284 F-class rifle.
Bullets = Berger 175XLD, triple sorted, trimmed and pointed.
Primers = CCI-BRs
Case = Lapua 6.5/284 necked up to 7MM, neck turned for a loaded neck of 0.308"
Powder = H4831 SC

Sacramento 300 yard range, temperature = 61 degrees, humidity = 84%, time = 08:00

Five fouling shots using Berger 180 vlds, nothing sorted. RCBS press used. MV = 2768 ES = 15 SD = 05

Shot ----- Seating -- Runout --- Total ---- COAL ---- Case to ---- MV ----- Group (five shot)
------------ Force ---------------- Weight ---------------- Ogive ----
01---------- 29# ----- 0.0010" -- 430.38 --- 3.340" --- set to 0 --- 2752 fps
02---------- 25# ----- 0.0050" -- 430.26 --- 3.337" ------ (-1) ---- 2745 fps
03---------- 26# ----- 0.0005" -- 430.36 --- 3.337" ------ (+2) ---- 2776 fps
04---------- 32# ----- 0.0010" -- 430.36 --- 3.340" ------ (00) ---- 2771 fps
05---------- 29# ----- 0.0010" -- 430.34 --- 3.340" ------ (00) ---- 2747 fps --- 0.484 MOA for 1-5
06---------- 23# ----- 0.0005" -- 430.28 --- 3.337" ------ (00) ---- 2753 fps
07---------- 33# ----- 0.0000" -- 430.16 --- 3.337" ------ (00) ---- 2743 fps
08---------- 19# ----- 0.0000" -- 430.20 --- 3.333" ------ (-1) ---- 2760 fps
09---------- 21# ----- 0.0010" -- 430.20 --- 3.340" ------ (00) ---- 2747 fps
10---------- 29# ----- 0.0010" -- 430.26 --- 3.339" ------ (00) ---- 2757 fps --- 0.317 MOA for 6-10
11---------- 24# ----- 0.0005" -- 430.02 --- 3.337" ------ (+1) ---- 2752 fps
12---------- 30# ----- 0.0020" -- 430.14 --- 3.334" ------ (-1) ---- 2754 fps
13---------- 26# ----- 0.0005" -- 429.98 --- 3.338" ------ (00) ---- 2742 fps
14---------- 29# ----- 0.0005" -- 430.14 --- 3.333" ------ (-2) ---- 2751 fps
15---------- 27# ----- 0.0010" -- 430.14 --- 3.334" ------ (-1) ---- 2756 fps --- 0.469 MOA for 11-15

Fifteen shot ES = 34, SD = 09

Notice the loaded round weight = everything was weight sorted!!!

I've had better result with out sorting anything.

Jerry

 

[mikecr]

So is it your conclusion that making ammo consistent is a bad approach?
Has the same load(but unsorted) produced better results?
Why do you think the ES, or grouping(or whatever) was substandard?

 

[Forum Boss]

Jerry,

Thanks for your test results. In my experience with the K&M gauge, it may be most useful with no-turn brass, particularly brass that has been fired 6+ times and is starting to show quite a bit of variance in the seating force required for the bullet. With the K&M I don't try so much to hold every loaded round constant (very hard to do), but rather use the dial as a rough warning when things are way off. I've seen the dial spike on a particular piece of brass with a max reading nearly double the average. That round goes in the fouler line-up. I have found that my ES did improve by culling the "odd-balls" in this fashion.

With newer brass, with consistent necks, I can see that the results may not be very noticeable.

 

[UK]

I would agree with the last comments, some rounds are very obviously harder to seat a bullet than the average, you can add a digital indicator to the K&M force set up that measures and records maximum deflection every time you seat a bullet, the spike on a standard dial is very hard to read consistently, having done all the same tests myself runout sorting etc etc etc, I sometimes get the best groups with the worst ammo, besides I like playing with all the toys, shooting is just an excuse to load more ammo!

 

[JERRYHM]

Mike,

So is it your conclusion that making ammo consistent is a bad approach?

------ Only when I make the ammo....not really something that I'm not controlling correctly is messing with me.


Has the same load(but unsorted) produced better results?

----- The forty round test this morning with much less sorting did have better results, but I did change some of the parameters. The es34/sd10 produced smaller group than the es13/sd04, but I've seen this so many times that I do not select loads based on chronograph results.


Why do you think the ES, or grouping(or whatever) was substandard?

---- The cases were annealed and neck turned (second time), and I think the neck tension was too light. In the later tests the neck tension and seating depths were change. The results were improving.

The NBRSA 1000 yard nationals start on Friday and I have NO idea what to shoot.

Jerry

UK
Don't tell about the bad ammo that produce the best groups it always stirs the pot (hehe).

 

[mikecr]

So I guess what I'm gettin to is how does this relate to K&M arbor press/force readings?
Obviously the force readings didn't cause those 15rnds to shoot substandard. And whatever did, stands seperate to invalidate K&M conclusions. Right?

Just wondering what notion you're trying to relay to us?

 

[JERRYHM]

Simple question: Do you gain anything by using the arbor press with the force indicator?

I though there might be some relationship between seating force and MV.

If it only useful to find the harder than normal seating pressure, the same harder to seat bullet could be found by (feel) with any seating method.

Back to my first question: Did I waste money with this purchase?

 

[anyrange]

Jerry,
Why did you not sort them by bullet seating force and shoot them in a seating force order?

 

[bozo699]

Simple question: Do you gain anything by using the arbor press with the force indicator?

I though there might be some relationship between seating force and MV.

If it only useful to find the harder than normal seating pressure, the same harder to seat bullet could be found by (feel) with any seating method.

Back to my first question: Did I waste money with this purchase?

(quote from another thread)
Wayne,

WHY did you start this thread? I have done without an arbor press for 50 years --- NOW I got one of them K&Ms with the squishy washers.

Will see Monday just what the relationship is between group size, chronograph numbers and bullet seating force.

Jerry,
Sounds like it didn't go as expected,sorry to here that and hope your luck changes next trip to the range.
Wayne.

 

[UK]

Jerry, my take on this would be that if you dont enjoy using the K&M you've wasted your money, if it adds something to your reloading then all ok, if unfortunately it introduces mental anguish by complicating everything take up knitting! (just kidding) I have often bought relaoding gadgets and wish I hadnt, just sold them to the next person who wanted to try them.

 

[JERRYHM]

Lynn,
Your learning.

At the next 600 yard bench rest match, I'll shoot an AR against your heavy gun and I promise not to turn necks, sort brass, sort bullets or clean my barrel.

See ya Thursday

Jerry

 

[memilanuk]

Jerry,

Still not fair unless you load on a Dillon, throwing charges with the OEM powder measure...

Monte

 

[navyrad8r]

Jerry,
i f you take up knitteing i will buy your K&M w/ strain gage for $50.00 and 2 garand en bloc clips(used).. that should get you some NICE custom knitting needles ;D
Cheers,
doc

 

[glbreil]

I haven't used a k/m but a few years ago I modified a redding seater die by adding an load cell and digital read out and then sorted my loads by seating force.

I could never tell much difference, but it made me feel good. One thing I learned was that I could affect the force dramatically by the way I operated the press. Pull the handle fast and the force was high, slow and it was lower.

I quit shooting that caliber and didn't build another die.

Gary

 

[NORZ]

There are still some variables you did not try to rectify.

Annealing the case necks to same value!
Reduced friction coating of the barrel and bullets!

 

[JERRYHM]

That was the second firing after annealing!

Any type of friction coating on bullets and/or barrel will only add many more variables to the mix.