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AR XTC/Match Irons

adv_rider

Howdy

Starting to look into match irons for an AR spacegun setup. I know NRA XTC allows optics, but I am used to irons from air rifle and smallbore competition. ...and it is not like I'm going to be top tier competitive anyways!

Spacegun will be a fairly standard pattern - .223 26" barrel, float tube handguard, flat top upper, and adjustable buttstock.

I also plan on converting my CLE service rifle training upper in 22LR for practice and informal smallbore matches. (22LR 20" barrel w/ 6" bloop tube, float tube handguard, flat top upper, spacegun lower). I would like whatever irons I get to pull double duty and work with this 22 upper.

Soooo, with that in mind I'm thinking about a used 22mm front and a mid grade rear (centra, phoenix, etc.). To set expectations I'm hoping to find a used set for $500 or less shipped w/ adjustable aperture/iris ready to mount. Probably an aggressive price, but I have seen good past deals in the marketplace and am in no rush.

There are a couple of things I am uncertain of though:

-Is there a minimum front sight height that I should be aware of? I understand it depends on how tall the rear is and shooting distance, but generally speaking is there an adjustability range I should look for if shooting .223 between 100 and 600 yards? It seems most of the common fronts (Rightsight, Riles, RPA) have a few different height offerings.

-For the rear sight, are there other robust/reliable ones to look out for besides Centra and Phoenix? Warner is out of my price range. I see Redfields pop up on the marketplace, but am unsure which models would be applicable (if any). Not sure if there are other proven offerings that show up used.

Thank you for the help and suggestions!
 
Just use a scope, you will enjoy XTC much more.
You need “tall boy” front sight- Phoenix, RPA several different 22mm versions. But, a 30mm front sight is the best way to go.
Rear sights- RPA, and Centra, Phoenix can usually be found fairly reasonably. Don’t waste your time on a redfield, too much backlash.

http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php?/forum/79-general/. The national match forum is about the best place to find XTC gear. Post a wanted add or look in the buy/sell and you might find someone with a sight set you are looking for.

Take the easy button- put a sightron Stac scope on you rifle. You will enjoy it more. I have a 3-16 STAC with a duplex that worked great, I just wanted more power for prone.
 
I appreciate the response - I honestly have never shot any competitive format with a magnified scope, and my only rifle scope experience is with an old k4 weaver on a bubbad 1903a3. Its an honest 1 moa rifle with the lyman irons - but never could get better than 2 moa with the weaver despite the scope and mount checking out. My friend didn't have an issue with the rifle scoped, so either I stink or my corrective lenses were causing problems in conjunction with the scope (my script is a -9. Yes, quite terrible! )

Never had a problem shooting irons, so I figured stick with the devil you know...

Good points all around and something to think about.
 
Just thinking out loud here, if your glasses are really -9, you might try looking through a scope without your glasses. If that works better, look at getting a pair of glasses with a nonprescription lens for your shooting eye and a prescription lens for the other eye. Even bifocals will be useless because the near prescription is at the bottom and you look through the top of the glasses when in position with a riflescope. Just do a quick test with no glasses to check this out.
 
That is a good thought about trying a scope w/o my corrective lenses.

So lets talk scopes for a moment just so I get the lay of the land:

Something like a 3-16 STAC also cmp legal for service rifle?

The 3moa or duplex reticle preferrable?

I also know nothing about scope mounting bases. Is there a typical base people use with an ar picitinny flat top for a 30mm tube?

Thanks!
 
adv_rider said:
.

So lets talk scopes for a moment just so I get the lay of the land:

Something like a 3-16 STAC also cmp legal for service rifle?

The 3moa or duplex reticle preferrable?

I also know nothing about scope mounting bases. Is there a typical base people use with an ar picitinny flat top for a 30mm tube?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
No, but neither are irons - both options put you in match rifle category, which isn't a bad thing, just different.

To be SR legal, the scope is limited to 4.5x, so you see 1-4 and 1-4.5x scopes. Starting out, I'd look at Sightrons new 1-4.5x Stac. It's a good price and good reticle. White oak is another option, but about double the price. Then Nightforce or March, about double that.

Mount, 30mm and you want it to be cantilever. Either a one piece cantilever like a freedom reaper or go the 6" extended 1/2" riser and a set of Burris XTAC low rings. You are trying to get thebheight from picatinny to center of optic around 1.30" to have proper cheek weld. MOST mounts on the market are too high.

Now, if you go back to match rifle, you are not limited to 1.30" height because an adjustable comb is allowed.

I dont disagree with Mr. Dietrich in general, I shoot optics. However, I have seen guys use irons for standing and then swap out a scope for the rest of the course because they found the circle sight from irons easier tonuse in the least stable standing position.

I used to use 2 scopes because I preferred one reticle for standing, and the other scope for prone. This required QD mount. I use ADM-ReconX and have zero complaints. Like I said, I took off and put scopes on in the middle of a match and had no zero shift. But, that doubles your sight cost.
 
Look at the White Oak Armament webpage.
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/ Holliger has all/any thing you need for XTC. As Jeff said, Freedon reaper mount is cheapest or get the extended rail from WOA and and add “low” rings.
If you don’t plan to shoot SR, then getting a scope with only 4.5x max mag doesn’t help you compared to irons other than not having to align a front and rear sight. More power is a good thing, and a variable for Match rifle gives you flexibility.

No matter what scope you choose, you will need to have a cantilever or extended rail to get the scope far enough away from you. I have not seen anyone put rings directly on a flattop receiver with a scope for XTC.
 
Even though you have experience with irons, and that is good, unless you're shooting palma there isn't much need for irons nowadays.
The iron sights out there are very expensive and somewhat fragile. Iron sights for an ar15 A2 are bulletproof but not as easy to shoot.
If you use a scope, learning to shoot in the wind at 600 will be a lot easier pick up. Also, if you decide the game is not for you, the scope still has some utility for something else.
For the sightron 3-16, I would reccomend the reticle with the hashmarks. It has a dot in the center that I really like. I also like how they use turret caps, I wish more scopes had a knob/cap arrangement like that.
 
Thank you for the replies - it really helps with the lay of the land.

My shooting background mainly precision air rifle and smallbore, so I am VERY comfortable using match irons. I actually still shoot 10m air rifle the most mainly because I can get a lot more shooting out of my spare time since I don't have to reload or do much cleaning. On a 10m AR-5 target I'm about 280 for a set of prone/offhand/kneeling. Not great, but considering I'm using a 20 year old Anschutz 2002CA in a laminate stock and no shooting pants/shoes/glasses it's not bad either.

Over the years I've picked up an A2 WOA service rifle and a spare A2 WOA service rifle upper. I know A2's aren't terribly competitive, but I got them very cheap and they are fine for the amount I use them. I thought service rifle would be for me, but let me tell you, I hate using a front post for target work. I can always switch them to an A4 receiver with a little effort, but as I mentioned above scopes are an unknown quantity to me. Also not a big fan of the service rifle slings, though surprisingly no complaints about the A2 furniture.

I also shelled out for a CLE service rifle trainer upper (A4 w/ detachable A2 handle w/ NM sights). I actually use this quite a bit since I have a rimfire range that is easy access. With the A2 sights I can get to the low to mid 90's in prone on a A-50 target at 50 yards. I do have to work pretty hard with those A2 sights.

My heart lies with position based precision/match shooting and am interested in trying it in high power - which is why I've been gravitating towards XTC. I think I'd be g2g with a set of match irons, but as I mentioned above, scopes are just an unknown to me.

Also since I have limited gun beans I'd like to be able to use whatever sights/scope for more than on discipline if reasonable. For example:
-a set of match irons should be capable of working on a 223 spacegun for XTC or a 22lr spacegun for outdoor precision smallbore.... though unlikely to be top shelf competitive. Nogo for service rifle.
-A XTC scope should work very well for XTC, but nogo for service rifle and precision smallbore
-A service rifle scope is very good for service rifle, but not the correct tool for XTC. Nogo for precision smallbore

Currently no plans for competitive high power shooting in other disciplines (benchrest, palma, etc.)
 
adv_rider said:
Thank you for the replies - it really helps with the lay of the land.

My shooting background mainly precision air rifle and smallbore, so I am VERY comfortable using match irons. I actually still shoot 10m air rifle the most mainly because I can get a lot more shooting out of my spare time since I don't have to reload or do much cleaning. On a 10m AR-5 target I'm about 280 for a set of prone/offhand/kneeling. Not great, but considering I'm using a 20 year old Anschutz 2002CA in a laminate stock and no shooting pants/shoes/glasses it's not bad either.

Over the years I've picked up an A2 WOA service rifle and a spare A2 WOA service rifle upper. I know A2's aren't terribly competitive, but I got them very cheap and they are fine for the amount I use them. I thought service rifle would be for me, but let me tell you, I hate using a front post for target work. I can always switch them to an A4 receiver with a little effort, but as I mentioned above scopes are an unknown quantity to me. Also not a big fan of the service rifle slings, though surprisingly no complaints about the A2 furniture.

I also shelled out for a CLE service rifle trainer upper (A4 w/ detachable A2 handle w/ NM sights). I actually use this quite a bit since I have a rimfire range that is easy access. With the A2 sights I can get to the low to mid 90's in prone on a A-50 target at 50 yards. I do have to work pretty hard with those A2 sights.

My heart lies with position based precision/match shooting and am interested in trying it in high power - which is why I've been gravitating towards XTC. I think I'd be g2g with a set of match irons, but as I mentioned above, scopes are just an unknown to me.

Also since I have limited gun beans I'd like to be able to use whatever sights/scope for more than on discipline if reasonable. For example:
-a set of match irons should be capable of working on a 223 spacegun for XTC or a 22lr spacegun for outdoor precision smallbore.... though unlikely to be top shelf competitive. Nogo for service rifle.
-A XTC scope should work very well for XTC, but nogo for service rifle and precision smallbore
-A service rifle scope is very good for service rifle, but not the correct tool for XTC. Nogo for precision smallbore

Currently no plans for competitive high power shooting in other disciplines (benchrest, palma, etc.)
Click to expand...
Where do you live? Maybe some competitors local that could let you “try” things. I would let my STAC go for $300. Can’t really buy anything along iron sights for that price.
 
For front sight height, you need to determine the rear sight height. Determining this is one of the most misunderstood procedures in setting up a rifle sight system. Basically your body and rifle will tell you where to mount the rear sight, (scope or irons). Develop a position first and when you open up your eyes, that is where the rear sight center should be. Many people get a rifle and build the position around the sight center and force the head position to look through the sights. Move the rear sight to the eye and get different height bases to do it (scope or irons). Close your eyes, get into position, then open. You should be able to look right into the sight. This will give you a natural position and less strain on everything else. Once you determine the rear sight height, then mount the front sight and elevate and rotate it to establish a gun zero for the range you are going to shoot.
A lipski rear base is great for mounting the rear as it adjusts a huge amount for elevation. You can shoot well with irons and if that's what you desire to do, then do it.
 
mgdietrich said:
Where do you live? Maybe some competitors local that could let you “try” things. I would let my STAC go for $300. Can’t really buy anything along iron sights for that price.
Click to expand...

I live in Maryland which does not have a strong match rifle scene. There are a few leagues/matches around, but they are all fairly far and don't mesh with my current schedule. I will be moving in the next 1 to 5 years and living near a good range w a competitive rifle program is a prereq. I will be retiring in about 8 years and would like to help coach a jr team too.

I have to admit I inhaled pretty sharply at the offer on your STAC... I am thinking...
 
Mike Samer said:
I have a 22mm Phoenix front sight in the classifieds for an AR if you are interested.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the heads up.

A friend of mine has a scoped ar with a cantilevered mount on a rail extension he offered to let me try next time we can meet on the range. I'd like to give it a try before deciding anything.
 
jelenko said:
No going back.
Click to expand...

I know right! I only wish I could use the scope with the other disciplines I practice/compete.

Right now high power is what I get to shoot the least :(

Could still put the scope on my 22lr trainer setup and just practice, practice, practice... No real desire for f class smallbore competition.

I plan to move in the next couple of years and living by a high power range with a healthy competition scene is a requirement. However until then most of my time is air and smallbore.
 
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