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AR-15 grouping problems

I have a home built AR-15 20" barrel 1-8 twist. It shoots great at 100-200 yds(3/4moa or better) but as soon as I get to 300 it all falls apart (6" groups or worse).I have tried ammo from 53-75 grn, both factory and handloads. I haven't ever had a gun that shot this well at 200 that did so poorly at 300. Any ideas on a solution or some kind of troubleshooting plan would be great

Thanks
John
 

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I'll throw my 2 centavos in.
Are the groups spreading out more horizontal..... like from the wind? Or is it all over?
 
Yeah changed optics with no change in results. The groups are all over, I would have blamed it on myself in the past but I actually shoot better groups with my Remington 700 5r which in my opinion is a more difficult gun to shoot.
 
Are you ranging out to 300, or starting out at 300?
(...as in barrel heating up?)

If you are walking it out to 300, try shooting at 300 right off with a cold barrel.

That's all I can think of off hand. I'm sure someone else can zero in on the problem. (Not trying to be punny.)
 
I have a home built AR-15 20" barrel 1-8 twist. It shoots great at 100-200 yds(3/4moa or better) but as soon as I get to 300 it all falls apart (6" groups or worse).I have tried ammo from 53-75 grn, both factory and handloads. I haven't ever had a gun that shot this well at 200 that did so poorly at 300. Any ideas on a solution or some kind of troubleshooting plan would be great

Thanks
John
Scope paralax ?.
 
Thanks for all of the replies! Allot of good info but I don't think anyone has pointed it out yet. I've tried shooting it cold, clean, dirty, and warm with no change in this pattern at 300. I do a check for parallax when I setup each shot string. The speed should not be an issue as all the bullets are well above the sonic threshold at this range. I do use wind flags and other indicators for wind. I have somewhat ruled out the land features/ and wind as a factor because I've shot other rifles well in the same location with same conditions. The groups are a random shotgun pattern. Thanks again guys keep it coming.
 
I have messed around with AR's all my adult life and the one thing I have had over the years that caused some weird accuracy problems was the fit between the upper and lower receivers. I have found that some will shoot fine no problem and have some movement between the two and yet others that seem to not move or at least not move much will do some crazy things like this. Most of the time it does, but even adding an Accu-wedge didn't completely cure the problem. When I get one that I can find no other "smoking gun" accuracy issues with I install two set screws in the top of the lower so I can positively take ALL of the play between the upper and lower out and this usually is the fix. Not saying this is your problem, but you got something strange going on here.
It really sounds more like a bullet problem, but not if it does it with all different kinds of ammo. I have had Nosler Partition bullets act this way, as well as some of the current aftermarket {non-military} full metal jacket bullets.
 
Are the 300y targets really 300 yards? Also, are they a similar elevation to the 100/200 yard burm? Do you have to make a change of position to shoot it, if so, are you adjusting your NPA or just muscling it over? That will expose many flaws at closer ranges. Do you switch your focus from reticle to target at 300 to see how you're shooting because you now doubt this gun?

Have another known good shooter sit behind it, see if it's you or the gun.
 
The upper and lower are a billet matched set and fit with no slop or issues I can see. I range the targets with a laser range finder and have verified it ranging with a mil dot scope. I usually don't move directly from shooting at 200 right to 300 so it's a new setup not really pushing the gun around to get there. As far as I can tell I keep my focus the same as any other time I shoot. I guess it wouldn't hurt to let someone else get some time behind it.
Just for more info the factory ammo I tried was 53grn hornady superformance, 55 grain vmax, and 75 grn hpbt Match. I also tried handloads with everything from 55-75. Thanks for all the info and keep it coming!
 
Assuming that none of the loads you're using are anywhere close to going subsonic at 300 yd, there are a few things you can probably rule out. You're describing going from 3/4 MOA at 200 yd to 2 MOA at 300 yd. That is a huge difference and is likely not an issue with the rifle itself or the load. A rifle and load that is shooting sub-MOA at 200 yd doesn't suddenly fall apart and turn into a precision shotgun in only 100 yds farther. In the absence of some external factors, that would almost defy the laws of physics, with one possible exception. What you're describing sounds most like either a shooter-based issue, or possibly one of a few possible external factors.

If shooter-based, my guess would most likely be something you're ding different at the longer distance. Hard to say "what" exactly, but something significantly different to cause that big of a difference in precision. It might be positional, or it might be related to the optic. Best way to rule out shooter-induced error is to have someone else you know can shoot to try it out. If they get the exact same results as at 200/300 yd as you, it would point to some external factor.

If external, I'd put at least a flag or two in the 200-300 yd region. Even 75 gr .224 bullets can be pushed around a lot by wind past about 200 yd or so, particularly at the relatively slow velocity you're likely getting out of an AR with a fairly short barrel. If not for the fact that you also get this effect with 75s, I'd attribute it solely to some wind and very light .224 bullets (<60 gr). I shoot 80.5 gr and 90 gr .224 bullets regularly in F-TR matches. Even shot out of 30" barreled bolt guns at very respectable velocities (2850+ fps), the 80.5s moved noticeably farther offline at 300 yd than the 90s, even in relatively mild wind conditions. I've shot plenty of Hornady 75s at 300 yd from an 18"-barreled Sig 556 DMR rifle and you really have to be on top of the wind conditions to keep the groups small. The lighter the bullet, the worse the effect will usually be.

It's also possible that your optic is part of the issue, even though it sounds like you've payed close attention to that. What power does your scope go up to? Are you running it at maximum mag at all distances? Again, letting someone else whose shooting skills you trust try it out may be the easiest way to spot something out of spec. The possible exception I mentioned above would be if you're getting wild velocity excursions for some reason. If the velocity excursions were pretty large, which although may not be typical, is certainly not outside the realm of possibility with a semi-auto, it could possibly be a contributing factor to the poor precision at 300 yd, but have less of an impact at 100/200 yd. Frankly, the velocity variance would have to be extremely large to account for this, but it is possible, and is something you can directly measure, even if only to rule it out as a cause.

I think what I would probably do first in your shoes would be to very carefully shoot multiple groups (each) at 100, 200, and 300 yd, using only the 75 gr load (i.e. heaviest bullet possible). I'd do it all at the same time, under the most consistent and benign conditions I could, so as to remove as much potential wind effect as possible. I would try to maintain the best shooting fundamentals possible, and closely monitor the conditions while shooting. Then I would very carefully measure the groups, determine average extreme spread, and compare the averages of several groups at each distance to make absolutely certain the precision difference between 200 and 300 yds is really as bad as you're describing. It's very easy to gain the perception that what you described is happening, especially when shooting a variety of different ammunition at different distances, when in reality it is the shooter, using light bullets in windy conditions, or some easily explained phenomenon. However, rigorously demonstrating it is actually happening requires consistent testing conditions, using the same ammo, etc. If the breakdown in precision between 200 and 300 yd still holds true following such a test, then I'd try to get someone else behind the rifle to see if they obtain the same results. If necessary, at that point it may be necessary to isolate one single variable at a time to try and determine what is going on.
 
It shouldn't matter if the upper and lower aren't rigidly attached, since the sights and the barrel are attached to the upper...just sayin.

Are you shooting off a bench or from position with a sling? I've had rifles that didn't seem to want to shoot off a bench, but shot fine from a sling...
 
I'm not a proponent of shooting light bullets in a fast twist barrel. Try 77 SMKs at magazine length. That combo's worked for me and others in 8 twist ARs. Are these groups off the bipod too? If so, it could be another factor.
 
Scope level to correct for canting at the longer range?

I'll be fair; I've had quite a few small groups at 200 fall apart at 600; but most of that is all me, wind accounting for the rest. I haven't had them fall apart between 200 and 300 though.
 
How are your eyes, and what scope are you using? IF you have astigmatism, that can affect your ability to fine focus.
 
I'm not a proponent of shooting light bullets in a fast twist barrel. Try 77 SMKs at magazine length. That combo's worked for me and others in 8 twist ARs. Are these groups off the bipod too? If so, it could be another factor.

+1. If the 77's don't work, then you've got something wrong in the setup. Or, have someone else shoot the rifle to confirm it's behavior.

Alex
 
It shouldn't matter if the upper and lower aren't rigidly attached, since the sights and the barrel are attached to the upper...just sayin.......

Loosen yours up and try it!!! You can believe this, they don't manufacture and sell ten billion Accu-Wedges a year and get $5.00 a piece for the little fifty cent thing because "it shouldn't matter".....by this reasoning, "it shouldn't matter" if your bolt gun is loose in the stock either, "since the sights and the barrel are attached to the receiver", but we all glass bed them. How many people can feel play in their bolt guns action to stock yet improve accuracy when they do bed them?????
All that said, there has to be a piece missing {that we are not hearing about} to this particular "mystery"....gun shoots 3/4 minute at 100 and 200 but opens to 6 inches another 100 yards later????? Seriously, what would someone do to make a rifle shoot like this????
 
In the last year I have been trying to teach myself how to shoot at ranges from out to 600. I also have an AR, home built, 20" premium barrel etc. The wind is always blowing where I shoot. I can shoot great groups at 200, but they can and do fall apart at 300. But, I have also shoot close to moa at 400, same bullet, same gun. I believe it is because I am not accomplished at wind reading and I am shooting a cartridge that may take a little more experience to shoot at distance. If I were shooting a 22-250 improved at 4000 fps, the wind would not nearly be as much problem.

I am shooting factory stuff right now and my gun greatly favors SSA 77 grain Sierra MK over Hornady 75's.

I don't shoot off bi pods because I don't want to learn to shoot on them and learn to read the wind at the same time. When shooting off of a rest, I found that most AR's have "grippy" forearms and butt stocks that are hard to use on bags. Groups greatly improved when I wrapped heavy paper around the forearm and paid attention to rear bag placement. My inexperienced thoughts are that the paper allowed to rifle to recoil consistently.

When you read this, keep in mind that I don't know a thing about what I am writing about.
 
Is it possible that your 3/4 100 yard group was a fluke, and your'e really shooting a 1.5-2 MOA gun?
 

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