AR 15 Coyote cartridge

[msinc]

Coyotes that get "dumb" at night....we don't have those around here. One thing regarding bullets, do you just want them dead or are you trying to get some nice fur {mount or sell, etc.}??? If you do want the fur then high explosive nuclear C-4 varmint type bullets are probably not what you want to use. For years I used full metal jacket bullets and was happy, then all of a sudden and without warning they quit making them accurate enough to actually hit anything. The more I use Barnes TTSX 62 grain .224 bullets in my 223 the more I like them. They will pass right thru a coyote. Just about everything else, even BTHP match bullets make 'em look like they were pi$$in' on a claymore when it went off.

 

[fredo]

Coyotes that get "dumb" at night....we don't have those around here. One thing regarding bullets, do you just want them dead or are you trying to get some nice fur {mount or sell, etc.}??? If you do want the fur then high explosive nuclear C-4 varmint type bullets are probably not what you want to use. For years I used full metal jacket bullets and was happy, then all of a sudden and without warning they quit making them accurate enough to actually hit anything. The more I use Barnes TTSX 62 grain .224 bullets in my 223 the more I like them. They will pass right thru a coyote. Just about everything else, even BTHP match bullets make 'em look like they were pi$$in' on a claymore when it went off.

Stay within context... " 'dumb' at night " was obviously used as a comparative to calling them during the day. We all know they're more active at night, so don't nitpick. But, if ya wanna focus more on the word 'dumb'...

Hunting with FMJs, day or night, would qualify. I sure wouldn't take the risk of zippin'' a non fragile FMJ at ANYTHING, and have it skip off into "who knows what, over yonder". Especially so, in anywhere even sparsely populated with people, or livestock. And doing so at night, when you have precious little visible frame of reference of background, would go beyond 'dumb', and straight to stupidly dangerous...

But, to hammer home the original point:
if you're gonna shoot a 'called in' coyote at night, the vast majority of shots are gonna be inside of 200yds. Agree, or disagree???

 

[fredo]

P.S., here's dumb' coyote at night, Exhibit A:

in my AO, no friggin' way this coyote strolls across that same pasture, in the daytime!

 

[msinc]

.....But, if ya wanna focus more on the word 'dumb'...

Hunting with FMJs, day or night, would qualify.

"Dumb" is blindly assuming that I either don't know the area I am hunting, or that I would shoot in a direction that I haven't taken the time or energy to figure out whether or not it is safe in the first place. In fact, just about ALL of the land I hunt on I OWN.

"Dumb" is also having to argue with absolutely every thing every one posts on this forum and you are as close to that as anyone.

"Dumb" is now having to post some stupid further argument to this!!!! Come on back king of dumb!!!!!

 

[Schism]

I wanted a cartridge with easily obtainable brass because I won’t be using a brass catcher at night but also don’t want to feel as though I’m slinging hard to come by or expensive brass across the prairie. With that being my first criteria I started night hunting with a 223, switched to a 6x45, and think I may have found my huckleberry in the 20 Prac. All three killed coyotes effectively but the trajectory of the 40 grain Berger’s out of the 20 Prac has eliminated the need to range coyotes out to 300 yards while still remaining fur friendly at 30 yards.

 

[people]

I would like to add two things to this thread.

First. Unless you are saving fur I am a fan of having more power. I do not wan to have something that will not reach out easily to what ever range I need to shoot. I have two go to rifles for coyotes. One is a ar10 in 308 and the other is my 300WM.

Second. The last few posts about coyotes turning dumb at night is very comical. I am not aware of any critter turning dumb when the lights go off. I have killed thousands of critters at night and one thing is very consistent. They are 100% less cautious but not dumb. When critters know they are being hunted they act according. When they think they are safer like at night they will go across an open field instead of walking in the ditch or low ground. When you hunt at night enough the critters do start acting like it is day light. Well at least for several miles around my farm.

 

[fredo]

I'll leave lay a response from one who brags about skippin' FMJs at coyotes, for what it is. As if owning the land you're skippin' bullets on makes it any less of a bad idea???

They are 100% less cautious but not dumb.

That was my contention, all along... thank you for agreeing!

Which is why I put the word 'dumb' in single quote marks, so as to emphasize an interpreted meaning of the word.

Therefore, 'dumb' = "less cautious"...or, whatever choice of word you'd care to use to interpret the very same point. That being, AT NIGHT, coyotes are more easy to call kill in close, than during the day...

You state that you've hunted at night quite a bit...why do you hunt at night?

Because coyotes are harder to call in close, or easier....???

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

In Minnesota all night vision is not legal for hunting, can you actually id at 500 yards a coyote, a dog, fawn deer?

 

[people]

You know fredo I think you are over thinking the use of FMJ bullets. Can they bounce? Sure. What can happen to any bullet that passes though a critter? Yup bounce. It happens quite frequently even if you do not hear it. This has been debated over and over countless times. Bottom line. There is no bullet that is 100% guaranteed not to ricochet. Except the one not fired.

So to how I really got started in night hunting had nothing to do with making it easier. Here in ND we have very strict rules about hunting at night. Owning land and livestock pretty much make those oppressive rules go away. So targets and opportunity allow me to hunt at night when the rest of the non land owners are forced to stay home. There is more to it than that but point stands.

The short version to answer your question of is it easier... Well it depends. If you go to an area where the critters have never been hunted it is very easy day or night. On the other side if you come to my farm hunting, day or night is not going to be very easy at all. If you kill anything it is probably a juvenile looking for its own territory to set up shop. The older ones have all moved on or where killed.

I do hunt off my land but that would be a story for an other time. So would all the coyotes I shot at long distance.

 

[fredo]

Thanks for the reply, I agree with your points. Especially that about coyotes not being 'dumb' when they are constantly hunted/targeted. Still, you must agree that your odds are better for taking those 'smart' ones, after dark, when they're more naturally inclined to move/hunt/be active??? That's still the oringial simpiistic point...that coyotes are easier to kill at night. So, zero the rifle @ 200yds, and roll wit it...

And, surely ANY bullet can ricochet. I hunt farm country a lot, and sometimes shoot where there might be population/livestock within a mile or so. So, the notion of using a (non-expandable) FMJ, vs. using bullet(s) specifically designed to expand and/or fragment, is ludicrous. Heck, my bullet/cartridge choice for night calling (30gr bullet @ 4100) will near explode on on impacting even a blade of goldenrod. Knowing that allows a DEFINITIVE level of prevention of a ricochet happening. Whereas, an FMJ, by design, offers NO LEVEL of prevention. Given that, I'll stand by that it'd take a 'dumb' decision to pick that latter, over the former.

Agree, or disagree?

 

[people]

I disagree with your statement. I do for two reasons. The first is. Most do not shot so fast or use so soft of a bullet. The second... Up to a few short weeks ago I would have agreed with you but after what I saw I just can not anymore. Story time.

A few weeks ago I was out hunting for critters of opportunity. I went to the top of a small rise on my land and I saw my neighbor and his kid shooting their muzzle loaders. They did not have any back stop. Every shot they took bounced several times. Then for some reason a coyote came out at about 250ish yds from them. The Dad took a shot hitting it in the guts. That bullet passed through and bounced and then bounced again. The kid took a running shot and missed clean. That bullet preformed exactly as the other bullets they fired.

I was shooting my 30-06 with ammo that is the equivalent of M2. It has some 150gr soft point boat tail bullet and matches the sight settings on KA M2 ammo exactly. I really should have written down the load. I fired my shot hitting the coyote higher in the chest than I wanted to. Remember any hit is a good hit mantra I have. Much to my surprise I got to see my bullet skip one time. I then went and talked to my neighbor and right away they asked what I was shooting. Because they heard it. Turns out they are shooting cap and ball ammo. They were surprised in what I was shooting.

Looking back over all the shots I have taken. Several times I did notice dust getting kicked up behind the critter I shot. I never gave it a second thought about what the bullet was doing. If I ever did it had to have been something like that bullet is now so slow and mangled it will not go far.

Over the years of long range hunting I did I always was looking for a good bullet back stop. The reason was not to catch the bullet that passed though but to catch a miss.

Now for some guess work math. Out of the billions or hundreds of billions of rounds fired during hunting and just general shooting. If it was a problem we would know it.

 

[Bc'z]

I disagree with your statement. I do for two reasons. The first is. Most do not shot so fast or use so soft of a bullet. The second... Up to a few short weeks ago I would have agreed with you but after what I saw I just can not anymore. Story time.

A few weeks ago I was out hunting for critters of opportunity. I went to the top of a small rise on my land and I saw my neighbor and his kid shooting their muzzle loaders. They did not have any back stop. Every shot they took bounced several times. Then for some reason a coyote came out at about 250ish yds from them. The Dad took a shot hitting it in the guts. That bullet passed through and bounced and then bounced again. The kid took a running shot and missed clean. That bullet preformed exactly as the other bullets they fired.

I was shooting my 30-06 with ammo that is the equivalent of M2. It has some 150gr soft point boat tail bullet and matches the sight settings on KA M2 ammo exactly. I really should have written down the load. I fired my shot hitting the coyote higher in the chest than I wanted to. Remember any hit is a good hit mantra I have. Much to my surprise I got to see my bullet skip one time. I then went and talked to my neighbor and right away they asked what I was shooting. Because they heard it. Turns out they are shooting cap and ball ammo. They were surprised in what I was shooting.

Looking back over all the shots I have taken. Several times I did notice dust getting kicked up behind the critter I shot. I never gave it a second thought about what the bullet was doing. If I ever did it had to have been something like that bullet is now so slow and mangled it will not go far.

Over the years of long range hunting I did I always was looking for a good bullet back stop. The reason was not to catch the bullet that passed though but to catch a miss.

Now for some guess work math. Out of the billions or hundreds of billions of rounds fired during hunting and just general shooting. If it was a problem we would know it.

I like you ethics on not taking a skyline shot.
Many people forget that they are responsible for the bullet after the shot.
No telling who or what is in that bulls path or how far it'll travel.

 

[natdscott]

I am getting parts together for a AR Dog Rifle.
My Idea is 20" Service Rifle 1-8 Barrel in .223 .
Sierra 55 Blitz and 60 Hollow Points are my way of thinking.
I am thinking 300 yard Max ???

That's kinda like buying a Ferrari and trading motors with your neighbor's Prius.

If you go fast twist, then run fast twist bullets. 65 GameKing, 69 SMK, 73 Berger, 75 Hornady BTHP C, 77 SMK C....

 

[fredo]

... They did not have any back stop. Every shot they took bounced several times.

Thanks again for your reply, and the story...
However, justifying one 'dumb' action (hunting with non-frangible bullets) with a story of an even more-'dumb'-er action (shooting with no backstop) is actually speaking to my point. That being, basic firearms safety & choice of projectile to mitigate risk...

To repeat, beyond the obvious safety rules, a frangible bullet is gonna minimize the occurance of 'skips'/ricochets, and I purposely utilize said bullets, especially in areas where there's even a SLIM chance of somethin' bad happenin'.

Semantics about varying backstops stopping a non-frangible ricochet is like arguing that safeties make guns 'safe'. We all know that ain't true!!! Whereas, a frangible bullet that comes apart on contact is very likely to not make it far, afterward...

Good discussion that needs exposure. Thanks again for your input!

 

[RussellJ]

I put together a 6x45 gas gun with a BHW 24"
barrel pushing 70 grain bullets just under 3000fps. Might have to try something lighter and go for that 200 yard zero.

+1 on the 6x45 gas gun. BHW 20" barrel with IMR 8208XBR powder and 80-grain Sierra #1515 Biltz Varminter bullets @ 2873fps.

 

[17TACnes]

The 22 Valkyrie and the 22 Nosler are a great cartridges in the AR15 platform. We built a 22 Valkyrie with a 18" 1:7 twist White Oaks Armament barrel. We built it to shoot the 90 gr bullets. The recommended barrel for the 22 Valkyrie is 24" in length so the velocity is maintained. I do know there are barrels for the 22 Valkyrie with 1:9 and 1:10 twist that are more suited for the 50-55 gr bullets. You may want to consider the 22" or 24" barrel with a 1:10 twist setup for the 55 gr bullets. My cousin has a 22 Nosler AR15 with a 22" barrel and shoots the 60 gr bullets and is getting velocities close to 4000 fps with it.

 

[7mmmag]

Ok I did get a chance to shoot a Nosler last week , it was shooting Sierra 55 gr Blitzkings at around 3200 fps . I did see some very good groups out of that gun . He told me that it did a pretty good job overall , he told me the bullets did good job on coyotes . I also did see 243 WSSM in ar platform he just got it and is figuring out a load for 75 V Max . I would think about of those but the brass used to be less than desireable , I did have one when they first came out .

I have hunted coyotes for 20 plus years and do somewhat understand some of thier reactions day vs night . I have had red lights , green lights , nightvision then went to thermal now , the thermal is a pain for me to get used to ! The reason for thermal move is because after a IR light got turned on 30% - 40% time the coyotes would run . I don't have many places to go and most of which is also hunted by many others . thats the reason for the flat as possible rifle as I have a hard time figuring ranges while things sre happening fast .

I am going to see if I can get a 12 twist for a Nosler with a 22 inch barrel . Thanks for the replies .

 

[fredo]

My cousin has a 22 Nosler AR15 with a 22" barrel and shoots the 60 gr bullets and is getting velocities close to 4000 fps with it.

"Close to", as in it being within 600fps of 4,000fps?

 

[A_Gamehog]

7mmmag,
Everybody has a box of 53 Grain V-Max bullets with a .290 bc and swear by them. Did you know Nosler also makes a 53 Grain Bullet with a .303 BC? I shot many coyotes in my lifetime and love my Bushmaster with a Nato chamber 16" barrel 1-8 twist. Custom 2.5 lb trigger. Has the Vortex Strikefire II red dot. I shoots the 53 Grain Nosler in a Nato chamber with 26+ grains of XBR 8208 and Lake city brass at 3400+ FPS. I have had a few coyotes in a "Pack" come in all at once, having a Bolt gun would would not enable a double or triple. With the red dot site I have a 400 yard max before the dot is as big as the varmint. But most of my shots are 50 yards or less.

I like where you are going with the 22 Nosler, I would use a 53 V-Max or 53 Nosler to 500 yards and call it good. To get that 22 Nosler to shoot 4K you need the 40 grain bullets with the BC of a 2X4 .

 

[spencerhenry]

Nothing wrong with a plain old 223. When shooting a 223 for coyotes, I have been using 55gr v-max for about 10 years. Very rarely an exit, but when there is it is never more than fragments. From 30 yards to 612 yards the v-max has gotten it done. Out of the 200 or so coyotes I have shot with it, only a handful have gone more than a few yards, most go nowhere. V-maxes also do not make it anywhere if you miss, they blow up in snow, or on twigs.
I run mine at 3050 fps, never had a splash. Accuracy is better than needed for coyotes, even at 500 yards or more.