Ar 10 accuracy - What can I expect?

[urbanrifleman]

When I commented I said that my DPMS would shoot 1/4" groups, on a good day, with kind of shocking frequency.... It has (with Creedmore ammo too). I am careful not to say "all day long" with any rifle. For a semi auto to say I was impressed would be an understatement but it won't hang with a benchrest rifle with a 2 oz trigger on a benchrest (being I shoot it on a bipod). But words get picked to death on the Internet. I sometimes think the picking and bickering over word choice becomes the real reason for discussion sometimes. In recent times I would say it is more important than the content.

My DPMS Gen 2 shoots better than any other 308 auto I have owned. It will easily outshoot a match level M1A just being bone stock (I don't include changing the trigger, in mine I have two stage service rifle trigger that I paid $70) and not even be breathing hard, for 1/3 the money.

 

[joshb]

When I commented I said that my DPMS would shoot 1/4" groups, on a good day, with kind of shocking frequency.... It has (with Creedmore ammo too). I am careful not to say "all day long" with any rifle. For a semi auto to say I was impressed would be an understatement but it won't hang with a benchrest rifle with a 2 oz trigger on a benchrest (being I shoot it on a bipod). But words get picked to death on the Internet. I sometimes think the picking and bickering over word choice becomes the real reason for discussion sometimes. In recent times I would say it is more important than the content.

My DPMS Gen 2 shoots better than any other 308 auto I have owned. It will easily outshoot a match level M1A just being bone stock (I don't include changing the trigger, in mine I have two stage service rifle trigger that I paid $70) and not even be breathing hard, for 1/3 the money.

I bought an early GAP-10 Armalite. It shot very well. A kid I shoot with liked it too. It did need a specific load to shoot well and didn't "like" some factory ammo. I saw a DPMS SASS at my local gun store and grabbed it so we could shoot 2 guns together. Wow! The SASS shot any factory load well and my reloads were near equal to the GAP, if not equal. I ended up trading the GAP for a BAT MB in 6br, but I still have the SASS. I'll never sell that gun. It just plain shoots.

 

[SG4247]

A 308 Armalite should shoot 1 MOA with GMM ammo.

Ocasionally a mass production AR will shoot very well (.5 MOA) with hand loads. Usually Bushmaster, Rockriver and a few others.

One of my Armalite AR-10 shoots in the 2s and 3s with a Krieger and hand loads.

My other AR-10 with an Armalite original SS barrel shoots 4s and 5s.

I have 3 AR-15s that shoot in the 2s. They are custom built with 20 oz triggers.

I have an AR 15 pistol the shoots .5 MOA at 500m.

These are not cheap ARs. Usually $3k with optics, built by me.

My F-class bolt gun shoots in the 1s and 2s, but it cost easily twice as much $$!

 

[Drop Port]

My AR-10 always shoots 1 shot 1 hole groups that measure .308" but my 6br and 6.5x47L often shoot 3 and 5 shot groups smaller than that.

 

[memilanuk]

Very interested in this myself... I got an MSR-10 in 6.5 Creedmoor a while ago, and it took a while before I had the other bits (scope, mount, etc.) together to take it to the range. Took a bit to get the adjustable gas system dialed in to where it didn't either crunch the ejected rounds or the loading round. Then I started trying some different (factory match) ammo to get an idea of how it was to shoot. Seemed to almost group 1/2 moa, then things went down hill fast. Turns out that if you pull the scope in its unimount off for something, and put it back on, it really works best if you remember to *tighten* the dang base clamps After that, it seemed to shoot about 0.7-0.8 moa with the remaining factory 'match' ammo (Hornady 143 ELD-X, Norma 130). From what I've heard from a few shooters I know and trust, its apparently a bit harder to shoot one of these *well*, compared to an AR-15 and definitely compared to a bolt gun.

I've got some more load development to do with a couple other guns, after which I hope to start working the large frame gas gun into the load development schedule. Fingers crossed!

 

[retired]

SO A 16" CHROME LINED ARMALITE WITH IRON SIGHTS WILL SHOOT 1 MOA ?

we should all get in line.
just buy gmm ammo and poof instant accuracy.

A 308 Armalite should shoot 1 MOA with GMM ammo.

 

[SG4247]

No irons please...

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

My AR-10 always shoots 1 shot 1 hole groups that measure .308" but my 6br and 6.5x47L often shoot 3 and 5 shot groups smaller than that.

“1 shot, 1 hole”, reminds me of a slogan I’ve heard.

 

[retired]

sorry just holding you to your word.
you put no caveats in your post.
one of the pit falls of making wide open statements.

No irons please...

 

[Bart B.]

My DPMS Gen 2 shoots better than any other 308 auto I have owned. It will easily outshoot a match level M1A just being bone stock

The rebuilt "match level" M1A's winning and setting records tested about 1/3rd MOA at 200 yards and about 1 MOA at 1000. SA's over-the-counter match M1A's tested twice those numbers.

Any rifle can shoot 1/4th MOA at 100 once in a while. It's how often that's important. All groups are between X units and zero.

 

[people]

The rebuilt "match level" M1A's winning and setting records tested about 1/3rd MOA at 200 yards and about 1 MOA at 1000. SA's over-the-counter match M1A's tested twice those numbers.

Any rifle can shoot 1/4th MOA at 100 once in a while. It's how often that's important. All groups are between X units and zero.

The real question is how long will that unicorn of a M1A stay at that level of accuracy? I bet it is far less than a AR-10.

 

[Bart B.]

how long will that unicorn of a M1A stay at that level of accuracy?

If well built, as long a bolt gun starting out 33% better.

Barrel's typically loose accuracy starting with the first shot. Match rifles used by winners and record setters in 308 Win have about a 3000 round barrel life. The last half or third may not be good enough for the Nationals, but will take home most of the marbles at other events.

Starting out averaging 1/4th MOA at short range in bolt guns, they'll test about 3/8ths 3000 rounds later. Time to rebarrel if the desire to be competitive is important. Add about 25% for M1A's and 7.62 Garands. Those semiautos don't have the parts fit repeatability shot to shot like bolt guns do. AR platforms are better.

 

[Bamban]

The real question is how long will that unicorn of a M1A stay at that level of accuracy? I bet it is far less than a AR-10.

Here is a unicorn of a M1a, shot this in a match 600 reduced at 200, 22 shots prone, sling, irons. That was when the barrel had over 300 rounds. X ring is 1.79 inch. Won many reduced courses with it and took gold in 2 LEG matches against the ubiquitous little blacks guns.



Then when it had close to 7000 rounds I was invited to shoot steel at 1000 yards, plate was 18 wide by 24

Watch "TLRS 1,000 YDS - Iron Sights - M1A" on YouTube

Almost forgot about when I developed the load with 185 Juggernauts. Here is how it tracks windage clicking it and note the elevation at 200 at 6325 rounds and it set 1000 yard range record for service rifle at the local range.



The rifle, a double lugged, now has over 7000 rounds on the same bedding, and would still shoot as good as any service rifle out there, shooting it that well is another discussion. Of all bedding compound being used out there, this was bedded with JB Weld by Art Luppino.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Cool, that one shoots as good as the average AR15 service rifle.

I bought an early GAP-10 Armalite. It shot very well. A kid I shoot with liked it too. It did need a specific load to shoot well and didn't "like" some factory ammo. I saw a DPMS SASS at my local gun store and grabbed it so we could shoot 2 guns together. Wow! The SASS shot any factory load well and my reloads were near equal to the GAP, if not equal. I ended up trading the GAP for a BAT MB in 6br, but I still have the SASS. I'll never sell that gun. It just plain shoots.

No one was more surprised than me by the performance of my DPMS Gen 2, I can assure you...

 

[SG4247]

SO A 16" CHROME LINED ARMALITE WITH IRON SIGHTS WILL SHOOT 1 MOA ?

we should all get in line.
just buy gmm ammo and poof instant accuracy.

Notice I said “should” not “would” or will.

 

[retired]

having built and shot m14/m1a's:
they never shot as well as an equally invested ar10.
they have rebuild requirements that a free floated ar does not.

annual rebedding if actually shot all year, never in an ar10.
most go to a m14 gunsmith for rebbling, while an ar10 is done at home.

do not get me wrong i love (match)m14's, but the ar10 (match) out shoots it all day long.

If well built, as long a bolt gun starting out 33% better.

Barrel's typically loose accuracy starting with the first shot. Match rifles used by winners and record setters in 308 Win have about a 3000 round barrel life. The last half or third may not be good enough for the Nationals, but will take home most of the marbles at other events.

Starting out averaging 1/4th MOA at short range in bolt guns, they'll test about 3/8ths 3000 rounds later. Time to rebarrel if the desire to be competitive is important. Add about 25% for M1A's and 7.62 Garands. Those semiautos don't have the parts fit repeatability shot to shot like bolt guns do. AR platforms are better.

 

[people]

If well built, as long a bolt gun starting out 33% better.

Barrel's typically loose accuracy starting with the first shot. Match rifles used by winners and record setters in 308 Win have about a 3000 round barrel life. The last half or third may not be good enough for the Nationals, but will take home most of the marbles at other events.

Starting out averaging 1/4th MOA at short range in bolt guns, they'll test about 3/8ths 3000 rounds later. Time to rebarrel if the desire to be competitive is important. Add about 25% for M1A's and 7.62 Garands. Those semiautos don't have the parts fit repeatability shot to shot like bolt guns do. AR platforms are better.

Well that goes against what has been proven time and time again. Yes the barrel should last as long but everyone knows that the M1A will need to go to the smith well before you hit the 4k mark unless you baby it to a level you have never babied a rifle before. I want them to just keep shooting but they just do not.

 

[Bart B.]

We form our opinions on what we observe.

Having observed several folks wearing out their M1A and M14NM rifles winning matches never needing them repaired or fixed for the lives of their barrels. That's proof to me some are rebuilt to start with much better than others.

Same was true with 7.62 Garands.

 

[SG4247]

One other note: My AR-10 barrels are consistantly making right at 2K rounds, and they go into the trash, due to fire cracking in the throat. Since they cant really be set back, I just scrap them.

 

[Bart B.]

I've known of bolt gun 308 Win barrels' fire cracking their throats at 1500 to 2000 rounds. All used loads way over max safe pressure levels.