Anyone load precision rifle on a dillon progressive?

[amlevin]

Whatever. I've had enough of this. Once again one or two(even 3) hardly makes a rule. Pole 500 or 1,000 match shooters and see how many reload on a Dillon. Guessing 5-10% would even be an overestimation.

Did you even bother to read the "Thread Title". Let me refresh things for you.

The title is "Anyone load precision rifle on a dillon progressive?". Not "should they", "is it a good thing", "can you make your ammo as accurately", but a simple Anyone load precision rifle on a dillon progressive?. Nothing more.


The answer is "Yes, some people do" (whether you like it or not).


BTW, it's "poll", not "pole".

 

[johara1]

Define precision…….. .1 or 1/4 min. or 1/2 min. If the answer is 1/2min. i would say yes, maybe….. thats 5" at 1000 yds. and 1/4 min. i doubt it, thats 2.5" at 1000 and .1 forget it……… jim

 

[searcher]

I experimented with my 550B with various ammo and found that the powder measure and primer seating were the two buggaboos that I did not like (as they came). Simpy drilling out the pin holed in the tool holder and inserting soft rubber triangles cut into strips allowed for concentric sized brass. I never got around to altering the tooling to accept a more accurate measure and dink around to find a powder that metered well AND shot well out of the rifle. For benchrest, getting N140, Varget and some others to acceptably measure in ANY measure is a tough deal. Long rangers measure regardless, which does surely defeat the use of the Dillon in that respect. That all said, I mass load a lot of 40-grain Unleaded Ballistic Tips for a .223 A/R on my Dillon and it will have NO problem putting five of them into 1/2" @ 100 in no wind - far more often than not. To hear of others doing it successfully with bench rest and long range, I surely think it would work for the guy willing to tweak his press here and there - and not needing to carry it to a match to load for conditions. Just too bulky and too much weight. Lots of smart guys out there that could tune these machines to load great ammo. Many would still find they would probably not use them in real world match loading. Not to say they couldnt.

 

[JamesnTN]

I'm gonna setup my 650 and load some rounds on it and if weather permits I'll run down to Birmingham this coming Saturday and test them at there 500 yard match. Maybe this will put to rest if precision ammo can be loaded on a dillon for long range competition.
I'll most likely modify the powder system to use my Harrell dispenser if I can get it worked out by next Saturday. But regardless if weather permits I'll shoot.

 

[Scott Harris]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't benchrest ammo loaded mostly at the match out at the range? This would preclude using big bulky presses like progressives, so I'm not sure that is even a valid use case to consider. However, I have loaded ammo with arbor presses, inline seaters, hand primers, etc. Once a few simple modifications are made to a progressive, it produces ammo that is measurably the same and shoots just as well in my experience.

For what it's worth, the best F-Open and F-TR shooters in the Phoenix area use Dillons to load their ammo. Hope to see you all at the F-Class Nationals later this month where we can continue this debate on the firing line!

 

[sparky123321]

Maybe someone could just load some ammo actually using a Dillon press, INCLUDING their "Dillon" on press powder measure and their "Dillon" on press primer setup. Not a souped-up or modified press, but an actual out of the box "Dillon" progressive press. Then maybe we'd have the answer to anyone loading precision rifle "ON A DILLON PROGRESSIVE"? Not half way or partially on their Dillon press.

 

[people]

I load all my 223 on my xl650.

 

[Scott Harris]

Maybe someone could just load some ammo actually using a Dillon press, INCLUDING their "Dillon" on press powder measure and their "Dillon" on press primer setup. Not a souped-up or modified press, but an actual out of the box "Dillon" progressive press. Then maybe we'd have the answer to anyone loading precision rifle "ON A DILLON PROGRESSIVE"? Not half way or partially on their Dillon press.

I do use the Dillon primer setup. The powder station has a funnel and we use a Sartorius GD503 to weigh charges......just like everyone else serious about long-range. I don't know of anyone, progressive or not, that only throws powder for long-range loads, so you're really stretching the comparison to even bring that up. I thought we are comparing a progressive's ability to size brass just as straight, seat primers just as well, and seat bullets just as straight. In those areas, my Dillon is the equal of any single-stage press.....and way faster.

This isn't rocket science and presses are pretty simple devices. I have yet to find a press, single-stage or other, that cannot be made to produce top ammo. IMHO, the real differentiator is the dies and that is where there are huge differences between samples. If you are getting a lot of runout on sized cases or seated bullets, its a safe bet that the dies are the culprit.

 

[Erud]

Maybe someone could just load some ammo actually using a Dillon press, INCLUDING their "Dillon" on press powder measure and their "Dillon" on press primer setup. Not a souped-up or modified press, but an actual out of the box "Dillon" progressive press. Then maybe we'd have the answer to anyone loading precision rifle "ON A DILLON PROGRESSIVE"? Not half way or partially on their Dillon press.

Did someone hurt you with a Dillon press when you were a child?

 

[Erud]

I think what we miss is the discipline they are used in……. you can use them in one that doesn't require .1 accuracy. Just check the size of the 10 ring and the X ring on a given discipline and it will answer the question. To use the progressive press for any bench rest competition it will not be competitive. You will have to answer the question disciplines as i do not shoot them any more.
The 10 ring at 1000 is 7" and the X ring is 3", i don't think you will find one Dillion used ……….. jim

Another thing worth considering is that bench rest is probably the only platform where you could even produce groups in the .1's with any ammo. I don't shoot bench rest. I shoot NRA prone with sling and iron sights, so my hold is going to limit the size of groups that I can produce, regardless of the ammo I feed my rifle. My hold is pretty good, but not .1" good. I don't have a bench rest rifle or bench rest equipment, and don't have any interest in bench rest "shooting". Does the fact that I don't have a way to shoot groups like that mean that my ammo is incapable of producing said groups? If so, how do you know?

 

[jonbearman]

I load almost all my .223 and .308 and others on a stock press (550b) semi progressive press. Yes that is right, semi progressive as you have to move the shellplate by hand which allows you to see problems before they happen. I prime on the press, size, charge with a stock Dillon powder measure, and seat on the Dillon and eventually eject into a padded bin. My 6ppc,6br I do on a Rockchucker and seat with Wilson seater dies. I don't load 500 rounds at a time so I take my time. This is not a race and even on my Dillon it is not a race. If something doesn't feel right on the Dillon you sure as heck can feel it. This shouldn't be an argument but then again some feel the need to make us all feel like we are not being truthful. Come on over and load some. Using a single stage is fine if that is what you like for everything. But when you have to load a whole bunch the semi progressive 550b gets the job done. The 650 and 1050 are true progressive's as you don't do anything manually except feed a bullet or case. I don't have a system like federal use's to load million's of round's so I use what I can afford to get the very best ammo I can make in my shop.

Ps: I have a really nice rcbs jr that was once owned by a fella that won many national championships and it wasn't a coax. The coax is a fine press but it can be done with less or more to manufacture quality ammo using the very best die's along with much learning along the way. My cousin has been loading longer than me and my loads are always more consistent and group better. He is a very smart guy but I study what I do like most other's who entertain themselve's by reloading .Reloading is fun and when it isn't fun, QUIT. This is a ford chevy thing all the way and we all know that Fords are better but the GM koolaid drinkers don't see it that way and useless arguments start about what is better and in reality the Ford and the chevy are just fine. It is a mental thing like being a democrat or a republican, you will never agree. The OP had a question to see if anyone could load quality ammo on a Dillon ,so the discussion goes right to brand, see what I am saying is stick to the discussion on Dillon reloaders and no arguing.LOL

 

[sparky123321]

Maybe someone could just load some ammo actually using a Dillon press, INCLUDING their "Dillon" on press powder measure and their "Dillon" on press primer setup. Not a souped-up or modified press, but an actual out of the box "Dillon" progressive press. Then maybe we'd have the answer to anyone loading precision rifle "ON A DILLON PROGRESSIVE"? Not half way or partially on their Dillon press.

Did someone hurt you with a Dillon press when you were a child?

A Dillon press picked on me at the playground when I was a little boy.

Hey guys, I'm not questioning anyone's shooting ability or group size. Heck, I normally hit what I'm aiming at no matter the distance, but I'm sure most of you can out shoot me.

I am saying, and no one will change my mind no matter what they say, that if you line up 10 out of the box Dillon progressive presses(using the Dillon onboard priming and powder measure) side by side with 10 Forster Coax presses and or an Arbor presses with Wilson Dies(using a quality priming tool, trickler and scientific scale) you will in general see a significant difference in AOL, Concentricity, ES and SD achieved between the two.

I absolutely agree with the comment above that using high quality Redding, Forster, etc. sliding chamber type dies will greatly improve your chances of obtaining match quality concentricity and consistent OAL no matter the type of press you are using.

In my prior testing on progressive presses, and I love my progressive press, I found the biggest problem and greatest deviation occurred while starting and stopping the reloading process. As the various stations were progressively engaged or disengaged I found the greatest inconsistencies in OAL, concentricity and powder charge.

If you're happy with your current reloading methods and tools that's great and I sincerely mean that. If you haven't tried Wilson dies, arbor press, quality hand or bench top primer tool, trickler and a scientific scale I recommend you do so. It's highly likely your group sizes will decrease, no matter how small they currently are, and you will experience fewer fliers as well. It will absolutely take you longer to produce your ammo, but many of us feel it's worth the effort.

Wishing you all a great day!

 

[johara1]

I think what we miss is the discipline they are used in……. you can use them in one that doesn't require .1 accuracy. Just check the size of the 10 ring and the X ring on a given discipline and it will answer the question. To use the progressive press for any bench rest competition it will not be competitive. You will have to answer the question disciplines as i do not shoot them any more.
The 10 ring at 1000 is 7" and the X ring is 3", i don't think you will find one Dillion used ……….. jim

Another thing worth considering is that bench rest is probably the only platform where you could even produce groups in the .1's with any ammo. I don't shoot bench rest. I shoot NRA prone with sling and iron sights, so my hold is going to limit the size of groups that I can produce, regardless of the ammo I feed my rifle. My hold is pretty good, but not .1" good. I don't have a bench rest rifle or bench rest equipment, and don't have any interest in bench rest "shooting". Does the fact that I don't have a way to shoot groups like that mean that my ammo is incapable of producing said groups? If so, how do you know?

I had a Dillion, and it didn't take long to see it was for the spray and pray crowd. If i were you i would get the necessary equipment needed to test your loads on a bench before you use them at long range. You may just do a lot better. You need to eliminate the variables to develop good loads. My master rating goes clear back to the 60's when membership to the NRA was less than 5.00, so i know were you are coming from…….My old bolt gun would hold 3/4" at 300 yds with a 20 power scope with LC match that we pulled the bullets and seated 168's on the same powder charge. The stuff you have now is so far advanced from what we had, but we tried to get the most out of it ……. never settle for less or that's good enough…….. jim

 

[Erud]

Sparky,
I don't know why you are so hot about using the dillon powder measure and priming feature and making no modifications to the press. In this game everybody pretty much modifies everything, and there are no classes we are required to qualify for to win some kind of reloading competition. It's kind of like saying that if you buy a rifle, put a better trigger in it and use it to shoot good groups/scores, you are cheating and it doesn't count. The mods that I've done to my dillon cost about $100. They are a Whidden floating toolhead die and a toolhead clamping kit from Uniquetek. These mods eliminate twisting of the toolhead and get rid of the inconsistencies you are referring to when all stations are not filled. A round loaded one at a time on the press will come out the same as one loaded in the middle of the session with all stations full. I do use the priming feature built in to my press and it works great. I do not use the powder measure because it isn't accurate consistent enough for my needs. I dump charges on a very accurate scale/dispenser combo that throws a charge that is accurate to 1 kernel of Varget every 12-15 seconds. This allows me to load just over 100 rounds per hour of the most consistent, concentric ammo that I can produce. This includes resizing, priming, powder charging and bullet seating. Brass prep is done separately, obviously. This ammo is good enough to win 1000 yard prone matches and I haven't been able to make it any better using a single stage. My time is valuable, and I have no love for reloading. I see it as a necessary evil to be able to shoot matches. Anything that speeds up the process without sacrificing quality, and leaves me with more time to do things I actually enjoy is worth something to me.

A couple of questions for you now; When you shoot your 1000 yard Benchrest matches, do you just dump charges from a powder measure without checking them in any way? How long does it take you to load 100 rounds?

 

[Erud]

Sparky,
I don't know why you are so hot about using the dillon powder measure and priming feature and making no modifications to the press. In this game everybody pretty much modifies everything, and there are no classes we are required to qualify for to win some kind of reloading competition. It's kind of like saying that if you buy a rifle, put a better trigger in it and use it to shoot good groups/scores, you are cheating and it doesn't count. The mods that I've done to my dillon cost about $100. They are a Whidden floating toolhead die and a toolhead clamping kit from Uniquetek. These mods eliminate twisting of the toolhead and get rid of the inconsistencies you are referring to when all stations are not filled. A round loaded one at a time on the press will come out the same as one loaded in the middle of the session with all stations full. I do use the priming feature built in to my press and it works great. I do not use the powder measure because it isn't accurate consistent enough for my needs. I dump charges on a very accurate scale/dispenser combo that throws a charge that is accurate to 1 kernel of Varget every 12-15 seconds. This allows me to load just over 100 rounds per hour of the most consistent, concentric ammo that I can produce. This includes resizing, priming, powder charging and bullet seating. Brass prep is done separately, obviously. This ammo is good enough to win 1000 yard prone matches and I haven't been able to make it any better using a single stage. My time is valuable, and I have no love for reloading. I see it as a necessary evil to be able to shoot matches. Anything that speeds up the process without sacrificing quality, and leaves me with more time to do things I actually enjoy is worth something to me.

A couple of questions for you now; When you shoot your 1000 yard Benchrest matches, do you just dump charges from a powder measure without checking them in any way? How long does it take you to load 100 rounds?

I think what we miss is the discipline they are used in……. you can use them in one that doesn't require .1 accuracy. Just check the size of the 10 ring and the X ring on a given discipline and it will answer the question. To use the progressive press for any bench rest competition it will not be competitive. You will have to answer the question disciplines as i do not shoot them any more.
The 10 ring at 1000 is 7" and the X ring is 3", i don't think you will find one Dillion used ……….. jim

Another thing worth considering is that bench rest is probably the only platform where you could even produce groups in the .1's with any ammo. I don't shoot bench rest. I shoot NRA prone with sling and iron sights, so my hold is going to limit the size of groups that I can produce, regardless of the ammo I feed my rifle. My hold is pretty good, but not .1" good. I don't have a bench rest rifle or bench rest equipment, and don't have any interest in bench rest "shooting". Does the fact that I don't have a way to shoot groups like that mean that my ammo is incapable of producing said groups? If so, how do you know?

I had a Dillion, and it didn't take long to see it was for the spray and pray crowd. If i were you i would get the necessary equipment needed to test your loads on a bench before you use them at long range. You may just do a lot better. You need to eliminate the variables to develop good loads. My master rating goes clear back to the 60's when membership to the NRA was less than 5.00, so i know were you are coming from…….My old bolt gun would hold 3/4" at 300 yds with a 20 power scope with LC match that we pulled the bullets and seated 168's on the same powder charge. The stuff you have now is so far advanced from what we had, but we tried to get the most out of it ……. never settle for less or that's good enough…….. jim

Jim,
I think you missed the whole point of the post you quoted. If the ammo I make is concentric, bullets are seated consistently, primers seated consistently, powder charges are perfect, etc, does the fact that I don't shoot bench rest mean that my ammo is inferior to ammo produced on a single stage press that measures the same? Why? If I buy a new Porsche 911 Turbo that is capable of going 200 mph but I don't have a road where I can go 200, does that mean that the car can't do it? Groups in the .1's just aren't going to happen for me for a number of reasons. First off, I don't shoot at 100 yards. Secondly, like I mentioned above, I don't shoot from a rest. Third, I don't shoot groups.

David Tubb pretty much invented the mods that people do to their Dillon presses and he loads ammo this way, according to his books. John Whidden also loads on a modified Dillon. While these 2 guys are not bench rest shooters, I doubt if you'd argue that they are part of the "spray and pray crowd".

I don't really care how anybody else loads their ammo as it does not affect me in any way. It seems kind of silly to proclaim that something can't be done just because you've loaded your ammo the same way for 50 years...

 

[amlevin]

Maybe someone could just load some ammo actually using a Dillon press, INCLUDING their "Dillon" on press powder measure and their "Dillon" on press primer setup. Not a souped-up or modified press, but an actual out of the box "Dillon" progressive press. Then maybe we'd have the answer to anyone loading precision rifle "ON A DILLON PROGRESSIVE"? Not half way or partially on their Dillon press.

Did someone hurt you with a Dillon press when you were a child?

Probably not. "Sparky" is just one of those shooters who feels that if people don't do it the same way he does, they're wrong. There are lots more that feel that way so it's really no big deal.

He still doesn't seem to remember that the original question was "Does Anyone" and now we know that many do. I'm sure that they'd change if it wasn't giving them satisfactory results.

 

[johnmyers]

I use a 550 but I use as a single stage. I like having multiple toolheads for different cartridges already set. Never had a problem getting very accurate loads.

 

[sparky123321]

Maybe someone could just load some ammo actually using a Dillon press, INCLUDING their "Dillon" on press powder measure and their "Dillon" on press primer setup. Not a souped-up or modified press, but an actual out of the box "Dillon" progressive press. Then maybe we'd have the answer to anyone loading precision rifle "ON A DILLON PROGRESSIVE"? Not half way or partially on their Dillon press.

Did someone hurt you with a Dillon press when you were a child?

Probably not. "Sparky" is just one of those shooters who feels that if people don't do it the same way he does, they're wrong. There are lots more that feel that way so it's really no big deal.

He still doesn't seem to remember that the original question was "Does Anyone" and now we know that many do. I'm sure that they'd change if it wasn't giving them satisfactory results.

Right back at you amlevin.

 

[johara1]

Erud, If you don't shoot from a rest and you don't shoot groups and you don't shoot a 100 yds……. i think you are missing the point. This is constructive criticism, you should to get a base on what you and your gun and ammo are capable of. Thats all, no more no less. I don't care if you use irons or a scope but you need to see how small it will shoot. Just maybe some of those 8's and 9's would have been 10's……… jim

 

[Erud]

Jim,
If you won't address any of my points or answer any of my questions, it'll be tough to actually get anywhere with this discussion.