Anyone else wonder why custom/factory rifle makers are still using a 1-10 twist for the 300 WM?
- Thread starter Mr.Knowit all
- Start date
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
From the manufacturer's perspective, what is the point of putting faster twist barrels on factory rifles for high performance bullets that few if any manufacturers are actually loading in commercial ammunition? With possibly a very few exceptions, none of these high BC bullets are even loaded in commercial ammunition. If you want to take advantage of them, you typically need to roll your own. So currently barrel twists available in commercial rifles actually match the bullets loaded in commercial ammunition reasonably well. If you wish to change typical twist rates, you'll probably have to address the almost complete lack of high BC bullet types loaded in commercial ammunition at the same time. This issue is further exacerbated by the fact that the number of shooters that use commercial ammunition so far outweighs the number that are into precision handloading that it's not even worth discussing. Those are the folks whose business most rifle manufacturers are concerned about. How many shooters realistically even have access to a place they can shoot ELR distances?
There are of course a few exceptions in the rifle manufacturing industry and I would certainly be happy to see more in the future, but the type of shooting you're talking about represents a minute fraction of the total number of shooters and I seriously doubt major rifle manufacturers will ever consider it as anything more than a "specialty niche". They're perfectly happy scooping the cream off the top and leaving the remaining crumbs to small scale manufacturers/vendors that cater to "specialty niches". In fact, I can pretty much guarantee you they know exactly how many bullets of the various different types are being sold. Problem is, the number of high BC bullets sold to precision reloaders pales in comparison to the total amount of commercial ammunition sold. I have no doubt that their business models have taken all this information into account and they don't believe they're losing enough money to make it worth their while to do otherwise. Until such time as those business models change, they really don't give a hoot about what the shooter that handloads high BC bullets and shoots ELR wants. I'm sure their thought is that people that want to pursue that type of shooting can either buy a custom rifle or have their commercial rifle re-barreled. Beyond that, I doubt they really care much.
There are of course a few exceptions in the rifle manufacturing industry and I would certainly be happy to see more in the future, but the type of shooting you're talking about represents a minute fraction of the total number of shooters and I seriously doubt major rifle manufacturers will ever consider it as anything more than a "specialty niche". They're perfectly happy scooping the cream off the top and leaving the remaining crumbs to small scale manufacturers/vendors that cater to "specialty niches". In fact, I can pretty much guarantee you they know exactly how many bullets of the various different types are being sold. Problem is, the number of high BC bullets sold to precision reloaders pales in comparison to the total amount of commercial ammunition sold. I have no doubt that their business models have taken all this information into account and they don't believe they're losing enough money to make it worth their while to do otherwise. Until such time as those business models change, they really don't give a hoot about what the shooter that handloads high BC bullets and shoots ELR wants. I'm sure their thought is that people that want to pursue that type of shooting can either buy a custom rifle or have their commercial rifle re-barreled. Beyond that, I doubt they really care much.
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Surely you cannot believe a rifle that is unable to group at 100 yards can somehow "get it together" further down range and start putting them in a decent group????? If a rifle cant group at 100 yards it is certain to get worse as the distance increases...a bullet cannot drift off target due to unbalance at 100 and later in it's flight come back on line. Stabilizing a bullet is one thing, performing some sort of miracle with it is another. It's a simple matter of angles.
I want to be clear, I am not "against faster twist", I said you want the slowest twist that will stabilize the bullet ALL THE WAY to the target. Maybe it would sound more acceptable if we left out the word "slowest" and just say you want "optimal twist"...either way it's the same thing.
Simply twisting a barrel faster than needed doesn't make you a futuristic, cutting edge shooter as it is not something a lucky few recently stumbled upon and the rest of the shooting world just hasn't gotten on board with the program yet.
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Every bullet you listed except Maybe the 7mm 195 which i am not sure about will shoot great at distance with a 10 twist. We shot 240 Sierras at 1000 with record groups in a 10. This is a 308 Baer which is almost identical to a 300 WIN.
The 240 Sierra is a much longer bullet and needs more twist then the 215. As a side note the record at a mile was a 308 Baer shooting 240's in a 10 twist. It was 5 shots in 7.5 inches shot in Ohio with really bad winds. I watched the guy shoot it and most the 338-408 Cheytacs and 408 Cheytacs couldn't get 5 on target because of the wind. Matt
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You say you can't over spin a bullet............ HMMM...... Take a childs toy.... a top and spin it very fast, it will wobble till it slows down and then it stops wobbling....... this would be the optimum spin rate for this object... a bullet that is spun to fast will have yaw, but it will not slow down enough to stabilize. Also faster twists barrels create stress on the jacket, which in turn you lose accuracy.
I'll be a voice of dissent.
1:10 is popular because it works. I went with a 10 twist barrel because it was in stock and I wouldn't have to wait for it.
My current 300WM load is shooting 215 Hybrids at 2940fps. My SG according to Berger anywhere between 1.45 and 1.51 depending on the temperature. My ammo will be supersonic past 1500 yards. I don't even have a place to shoot past a mile.
ELR is just not that important to me. If I go out and hit a gong at 2000 yards...yay good for me, but it's a pretty useless endeavour. I am not going to shoot an animal in unknown conditions anywhere near that far. I don't even have a range-finder that'll hit targets that far.
My 300WM serves a purpose. It's to put energy into game animals out to 1200 yards. A 10 twist definitely isn't hurting me there.
So there is a difference, but one I doubt you'd be able to qualify.
1:10 is popular because it works. I went with a 10 twist barrel because it was in stock and I wouldn't have to wait for it.
My current 300WM load is shooting 215 Hybrids at 2940fps. My SG according to Berger anywhere between 1.45 and 1.51 depending on the temperature. My ammo will be supersonic past 1500 yards. I don't even have a place to shoot past a mile.
ELR is just not that important to me. If I go out and hit a gong at 2000 yards...yay good for me, but it's a pretty useless endeavour. I am not going to shoot an animal in unknown conditions anywhere near that far. I don't even have a range-finder that'll hit targets that far.
My 300WM serves a purpose. It's to put energy into game animals out to 1200 yards. A 10 twist definitely isn't hurting me there.
So there is a difference, but one I doubt you'd be able to qualify.
Well you guys better tell Bryan Litz and Hornady they are both wrong. I have 9 twist 7mm shooting 180s and 30s shooting 215s with a 10 twist. They are missing bc because of the slow twist. You are all stuck in the past which is fine with me. Maybe in another twenty years they will be caught up with the now present. I agree with the op. We can argue all day long my opinion and yours will not change and that is all they are, opinions.
I have no clue how you even took that that way. You are 180 out. In the short range it does not matter if the bullet is on the edge of stability because it will have done its job by the time it is no longer stable. In long range you don't have that luxury.
....and you know that how? You tested how? You have what for test equipment?
The guy with a Aerospace Engineering degree who designed the bullet says so. I have learned by wasting my time in this thread that most of you know more than he does. I have nothing else to add. Keep doing what you are doing it makes no difference to me.
Well. doing it wrong has won me a TRUCKLOAD of wood, including an IBS 1000 yard Two gun national championship, LG overall national championship, and LG group national championship....so yes, I will continue to do it wrong!!
I have an open mind........ and would like to see your proof that faster twists are better....... show some of your targets at 1000 yards, with a 7 or 8 or 9 twist 30 caliber.......... proof is on paper, not theory based...
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
This is not correct. Instability serious enough to cause problems in short range will not "go away" because the bullet's already done it's job. In fact, that is where insufficient twist rates are likely to show up most often. In LR shooting, the bullet loses linear velocity much faster than it loses rotational velocity. Because of this fact, bullets generally become more stable the farther they fly. The exception to that would be in a short range scenario where the instability was so severe as to cause problems such as keyholing or tumbling straight out of the bore. If the bullet has sufficient velocity to reach 1000 yd (or more) and isn't tumbling or keyholing by the time it hits 100 yd, it will continue to fly with increasing gyroscopic stability. As in the case of the 168 SMK, the gyroscopic stability can sometimes be overcome via dynamic instability, but that is an issue less dependent on twist rate than it is on bullet design.
If I understand this whole thread correctly, there's a few shooters that are feeling upset because the major rifle manufacturers aren't catering to their specific desires for chamberings and twist rates to shoot high BC bullets in ELR. All I can say is get used to it. They're not in business to provide your every desire, they're in business to make money. If they perceive there is little profit in such ventures, I guarantee their decision has been well thought out from a business perspective. If that perspective doesn't happen to correlate your specific shooting preferences, there are other way to get what you want and likely end up with a far better product than any mass-produced factory rifle, regardless of what twist rate the barrel has.
You can attempt to make your lack of a suitable argument seem less obvious Mr. Furman, by implying none of the other posters have any ballistic knowledge simply because they disagree with you. However, facts are facts, and the ballistics being discussed here really isn't very difficult to grasp.
Bryan Litz is perhaps one of the world's foremost experts in ballistics, but he is also in business, and don't think for a minute that doesn't play some role in the whole process. Bullets launched at an Sg of 1.4, which is the value Bryan advocated just a short time ago, don't fall out of the air because they're unstable. Via further testing, he has more recently reached the conclusion that an Sg of 1.5 is required to ensure that bullets leave the bore with a minimum of pitch/yaw as well as with their full [theoretical] BC.
In fact, the Berger twist rate calculator will give you a nice number telling you how much percent BC you're giving up with an "insufficient" twist rate. Problem is, that is a value specifically derived using an Sg of 1.5 as the "breakeven" point. The variability of barrel twists, bullet OAL within a given Lot, atmospheric conditions, and several other factors mean that there is a limit as to how close one can make the call and state with any certainty that there is some difference. If Berger's calculator tells me I'm giving up no more than 1-2% of the theoretical maximum BC, I can make a pretty good argument that the predicted loss of BC is statistically insignificant, without inputting a far larger amount of rifle- and load-specific information. It's a guideline, nothing more, nothing less. If you and other wish to needlessly overspin your bullets just to ensure that you're getting the last .0001% of theoretical maximum BC, that's great. Buy your own barrel and have a competent smith chamber it appropriately. I can guarantee you that the odds are very good that shooting a factory rifle, even though it has sufficient twist for whatever bullet you want to shoot, in and of itself will have far greater negative impact on precision than some slight or imagined twist rate deficit. Rather than venting on a shooting forum, have you ever considered contacting any of the manufacturers themselves and making your case for faster twist rate barrels as standard equipment, or at least as options? If you can convince them there is a market, you might find them receptive to the idea.
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XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Custom guns are built that way because the customer ordered it that way. if you don't understand that then this conversation is pointless. The OP may shoot 2000 yds with regularity. Personally the longest shot I've taken was the buffalo at Raton.
As for long range hunting, people need to watch less TV.
As for long range hunting, people need to watch less TV.
shoot4fun
Gold $$ Contributor
I contend that rifles for the masses ARE changing even as we speak. Most all 6.5 Creedmoor chambered factory rifles have 1 in 8 twist. It was the time when anything 260 came 1 in 9 at best and usually slower. Ruger is using faster twists in many rifles; for example, take a look at the RPR. 1 in 8 twist for 243, ten for 308 and a friend just bought a Number 1 243 with a 7.7 twist. It wasn't that many years ago that the "standard" for 308/30-06 and 300Win Mag was eleven or even twelve twist. Manufacturers are answering "the call", and if you don't believe it, just look at Ruger. Bill Ruger would have NEVER allowed the AR platforms or the RPR or, for that matter, anything with a threaded barrel. Savage has many new platforms aimed at all shooters budgets and there are others doing the same.
The problem is US! We are (let's face it) snobs. We want, no demand, only the best. The fact is backed up by the thousands of "new kids on the block" with lathes, mills and a desire to build whatever we demand. Also component makers that are constantly coming up with new widgets to try and satisfy our desires fueled by threads like this one on the internet.
The problem is US! We are (let's face it) snobs. We want, no demand, only the best. The fact is backed up by the thousands of "new kids on the block" with lathes, mills and a desire to build whatever we demand. Also component makers that are constantly coming up with new widgets to try and satisfy our desires fueled by threads like this one on the internet.
No sir, not opinion, and this is where you are "180 out". Well, yours might be opinion, but the business of mechanics is an exact science...and it is the only science that is exact. Let's say for now that faster twist barrels really are the futuristic new wave you advocate...do you really think a pack of hillbilly's "opinions" on here could keep the very people that manufacture barrels from "stepping into the future"???? Not a chance!!! If what you are saying is true and a simple faster twist really was the be-all to end-all final answer for bullet stabilizing you wouldn't have to worry about buying any 1-in-9" or 1-in-10" twist barrels...you could only buy a 1-in-6" twist, because that is about all they would make!!!
I can personally guarantee you this much...we wish "stepping into the future" of perfect shooting was this simple!!!
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I'd opine that you might be the one with underwear in a knot. Try turning them around first. My first custom re-barrel was back in 1979, and in the 38 years since I do not recall ordering a barrel with out deciding on, in the following order:
1. the purpose of the rifle. ie competition or hunting.
2. cartridge and bullet weight.
3. barrel length and twist desired.
4. then a gunsmith to do the build.
Not to offend, but if you do not have a plan, how do you expect to get what you wanted?
1. the purpose of the rifle. ie competition or hunting.
2. cartridge and bullet weight.
3. barrel length and twist desired.
4. then a gunsmith to do the build.
Not to offend, but if you do not have a plan, how do you expect to get what you wanted?
dcali
Bullet Maker
Most of the time, I love that Bryan Litz wrote his books. He's really good at it, and has a knack for explaining complex concepts in simple language.
Then there are times like this, when his words are misinterpreted to the point of absurdity, and people get all torqued up over nothing.
For a given range and bullet there exists an optimal twist that balances accuracy and stability. Since most of the bullets out there for a 300 are 180 grains, and the most common use is hunting at what most competitors would call short range, the twist they have selected is a perfectly sane option. Conservative, even.
Even more importantly, if you are shooting a .300 at 400 yards with factory ammo, I challenge anyone to identify the factory twist rate from behind the gun. It simply does not matter. 10 is fine. It allows factory shooters to use commonly available ammunition and it allows handloaders to use heavier bullets. Nobody cares about ELR.
Then there are times like this, when his words are misinterpreted to the point of absurdity, and people get all torqued up over nothing.
For a given range and bullet there exists an optimal twist that balances accuracy and stability. Since most of the bullets out there for a 300 are 180 grains, and the most common use is hunting at what most competitors would call short range, the twist they have selected is a perfectly sane option. Conservative, even.
Even more importantly, if you are shooting a .300 at 400 yards with factory ammo, I challenge anyone to identify the factory twist rate from behind the gun. It simply does not matter. 10 is fine. It allows factory shooters to use commonly available ammunition and it allows handloaders to use heavier bullets. Nobody cares about ELR.
damoncali, and the group,
not to stray too far, but ELR can be something to be considered, depending on the scenario. I live in SW Idaho, and we go shoot Rockchucks. Often, out at F-Class range or farther.
If I can spot a 'chuck far out, the Geovids tell me it is, say 1200 yards, and I have my little notebook with the Litz-derived drop, I'll take that shot. Yes, I miss a lot, but hits are leaning more towards probability than faint possibility the last two years. That due to Berger's Hybrids and Litz's software.
Good post.
not to stray too far, but ELR can be something to be considered, depending on the scenario. I live in SW Idaho, and we go shoot Rockchucks. Often, out at F-Class range or farther.
If I can spot a 'chuck far out, the Geovids tell me it is, say 1200 yards, and I have my little notebook with the Litz-derived drop, I'll take that shot. Yes, I miss a lot, but hits are leaning more towards probability than faint possibility the last two years. That due to Berger's Hybrids and Litz's software.
Good post.
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