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Anyone else wonder why custom/factory rifle makers are still using a 1-10 twist for the 300 WM?

Mr.Knowit all

To anyone that already has your panties in a bunch-RELAX and LISTEN for once. If you are not in the LR or ELR this isn't for you.

It seems that when ever someone has new custom build (300WM) featured in a magazine it will have a 1-10 twist. Shooting as far as we do (ELR)with todays longer and higher BC projectiles it blows my mind why someone would even think of a 1-10 twist. Sako still uses in a 1-11 twist, I'm sure to save money because their 308s have a 1-11 twist also. Sako makes some of the finest rifles around and most expensive too and they unable to shoot the bullet or bullets I like to shoot.

Who on this forum would not want to have a higher SG when entering transonic (1339 fps)? I would.
I believe that even Litz changed the recommendation on his 215s (among a few others)from a 1-10 to 1-9. I believe that he recognizes the importance of a faster twist at those distances. Maybe he can chime in??? I know some of these bullet companies (like Hornady) put out these heavy, long, high BC bullets out and say that it only needs a 1-10 twist but have you ever an the numbers and at what elevation? A 1-10 twist may give you a new record at 1000 yards but some days I try to shoot twice that. Would you want to shoot Berger's 215, 230, or Hornady's 208, 225 grain bullets 2k yards with a 9 twist or 10 or 11? Maybe even an 8 twist?

If you have a fragile ego save your answer but if you have any good points please respond.
Thank you.
 
Your question is a bit tricky because you involve custom rifle builders and factory rifle builders in the same sentence.
Factory rifle builders and ammunition manufacturers have to follow the Saami specs . So the initial design of the cartridge gave the over all length of the cartridge, throat and then magazine length.
Hornady does not bother to produce a 300 wm heavier than 200 gr eld because they know it won't work in every rifle at every altitude and also because the speed numbers won't look flash on the side of the box ( even if we know that initial speed is not neccessaraly essential when using high bc projectiles).
And look how deep those high bc projectiles have to be seated in when using Saami spec throat / magazine length ( 308,300 wm, 300 wsm, 300 ultra mag...)

Custom rifle builders have more flexibility and most can make whatever you want .the 1 in 9" twist although available a while back from only a few is probably now very common through every barrel maker.
But maybe that good number of the custom rifle makers customers still use factory ammo and not neccessaraly reload and therefore don t have a need for a1 in 9" twist?
 
I don't build as many rifles a year as most guys and most of the ones I do are for hunters that want something "better" than factory out of the box. When ever they get asking about twist and contour and chambers and calibers I always suggest that they first decide which bullet they are going to use and base everything else on that. This has also proven to work pretty good for Match rifles and really any rifle that the customer wants to shoot its best and have confidence in. Decide the bullet, figure out the optimum twist and go from there.
I get what you are saying about the 300WM...it's just about the same way with anything 6.5mm, why do they bother to make them all a 1-in-9"??????
 
The real answer is there is no good reason. They are stuck in the past. To the SAAMI point the 300 WM SAAMI chamber's throat is plenty long for the bigger bullets. The science says it is very difficult to over spin a bullet and the spin has more of an affect on ballistic coefficient than once thought. Manufacturers need to move towards faster twists.
 
1) It's factory, so you're going to assume factory-like ammo, most of which is in the 180 grain range.
2) The improvements in drag to be had by pushing initial Sg higher than 1.0 are limited.
3) There are costs to a faster twist: higher stress on the bullets, less inherent accuracy, more torque on the rifle.
4) The fraction of rifle shooters who shoot ELR (beyond transonic) with a .300 WM at all is tiny. Those who do it with factory rifles is practically zero.
 
damoncali said:
1) It's factory, so you're going to assume factory-like ammo, most of which is in the 180 grain range.
2) The improvements in drag to be had by pushing initial Sg higher than 1.0 are limited.
3) There are costs to a faster twist: higher stress on the bullets, less inherent accuracy, more torque on the rifle.
4) The fraction of rifle shooters who shoot ELR (beyond transonic) with a .300 WM at all is tiny. Those who do it with factory rifles is practically zero.
Click to expand...


#3-Less inherent accuracy? Really? Why is that? Does it slow it down too much? You must be one of those guys that says "you don't want over spin your bullet". Better to "over spin" a bullet than under spin it. I better toss out this 1-7 twist .308 that I have that shoots .25 min most days.... You will have a better BC with some of the longer rounds. Unless the bullet exits the muzzle and then completely flies apart there is no such thing as over spinning a bullet. Look at the 338 LM. most were made with 1-10 I have even seen them with a 1-12 twist but now some manufactures are making 1-9.25 twist. I believe Litz even raised his minimum SG from 1.4 to 1.5
#4-There are many more shooters using 300WM, Norma Mag, Ultra Mag. beyond transonic than you think.

Ringostar- You are incorrect. You can go to Berger's site and see that they were changed from a 10 twist to a 9 twist.
 
I don't know if I agree about just arbitrarily twisting a rifle faster or not. I have always read and heard it repeated that for best accuracy, twist wise, "you want the slowest twist that will still stabilize the bullet all the way to the target." In my own experience this has proven to be true in most cases.
There could be many reasons for this and I will offer one that I believe to be true. If a bullet is not perfectly balanced, and we are talking absolute perfect dead on with zero imbalance, then the slightest little bit of imbalance is accentuated {increased} with more {unnecessary} twist over a barrel with only the twist needed to stabilize to the target.
Anyone who don't believe this or would like to understand better should shoot two rifles of different twist rates with bullets that are known to not have good balance, such as cheap generic full metal jacket .224" so-called "Bulk" bullets. Load up your favorite 223 loads and fire those 55 grain pills in a 1-in-14" barrel and then check the groups you get out of a 1-in-8" or 1-in-9" and you will understand quick. Neither will shoot good groups, but one will definitely be worse than the other.
 
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Eternal Student said:
To anyone that already has your panties in a bunch-RELAX and LISTEN for once. If you are not in the LR or ELR this isn't for you.

It seems that when ever someone has new custom build (300WM) featured in a magazine it will have a 1-10 twist. Shooting as far as we do (ELR)with todays longer and higher BC projectiles it blows my mind why someone would even think of a 1-10 twist. Sako still uses in a 1-11 twist, I'm sure to save money because their 308s have a 1-11 twist also. Sako makes some of the finest rifles around and most expensive too and they unable to shoot the bullet or bullets I like to shoot.

Who on this forum would not want to have a higher SG when entering transonic (1339 fps)? I would.
I believe that even Litz changed the recommendation on his 215s (among a few others)from a 1-10 to 1-9. I believe that he recognizes the importance of a faster twist at those distances. Maybe he can chime in??? I know some of these bullet companies (like Hornady) put out these heavy, long, high BC bullets out and say that it only needs a 1-10 twist but have you ever an the numbers and at what elevation? A 1-10 twist may give you a new record at 1000 yards but some days I try to shoot twice that. Would you want to shoot Berger's 215, 230, or Hornady's 208, 225 grain bullets 2k yards with a 9 twist or 10 or 11? Maybe even an 8 twist?

If you have a fragile ego save your answer but if you have any good points please respond.
Thank you.
Click to expand...
I have a question what factory gun maker builds a custom gun . Larry
 
If you believe that jacket concentricity is important for accuracy, then ask yourself why that would be.

It's because when you spin a bullet with an eccentric jacket, it will create dispersion. The worse the eccentricity, and the faster you you spin it the worse the flyer will be. Otherwise, what's the point of going to such lengths to create precise jackets? You think Berger spends all that money scraping out another tenth for grins?

Of course twist matters for accuracy.
 
damoncali said:
If you believe that jacket concentricity is important for accuracy, then ask yourself why that would be.

It's because when you spin a bullet with an eccentric jacket, it will create dispersion. The worse the eccentricity, and the faster you you spin it the worse the flyer will be. Otherwise, what's the point of going to such lengths to create precise jackets? You think Berger spends all that money scraping out another tenth for grins?

Of course twist matters for accuracy.
Click to expand...

This.....and if you look carefully at the base of those full metal jacket "bulk" machine gun bullets I was referring to testing you can even see the lead core not very concentric in the jacket in many of the bullets. The 7.62mm 147 grain ones are not as bad as the 5.56mm 55 grain ones, but they are still pretty bad.
Also, the faster the twist the more the imbalance weighs. Just like in a car engine...a few grams of static {non-moving} imbalance on the crankshaft will weigh only a few ounces at idle {550 rpm} that few grams turns to several hundred pounds at 7500 rpm. That is why we balance race car engines,not to make the engine run smooth...to get rid of unneeded power robbing mass.
 
msinc said:
Doesn't Remington still have a custom shop?????
Click to expand...
They sure do . But the custom Remington I have is how they are finished never have I seen custom chamber or barrel listed .
I have a custom Remington that was show cased in the first custom advertising ever .
The stock is special and the engraveing is hand done from the factory finish is flawless the bore is above average but still not what I would call custom . Chamber is ok but still wouldn't call it custom . Best example of custom gun is winchester their custom are very pricy But don't check the bore .
Larry
 
Almost every response in this thread against faster twists is providing data for short range accuracy. In long range, which is what the op was talking about, two things matter. Vertical and bc. I have yet to see barrels twisted "too fast" negatively affect vertical on long range targets and it is absolutely known that "under twisting" cost bc. So here are the two sides. One, you move to the present and start making barrel twists to match the bullets of today. This allows shooters to use the bullets such as the Berger 215 30cal, 195 7mm, the newer tipped bullets, etc.. In this case the guys shooting 180s will still be fine. If you want to talk about the loss of accuracy, I don't think the small loss of accuracy will be noticed on game under 400 yards. For the guys shooting under 180 I can't even see the point, pick a smaller caliber. The second choice is to stay in the past. I can guarantee this is the sole reason I will not own a Sako/Tikka product in 7mm or 30 cal. I seriously doubt there are many shooters picking up ammo at Cabela's or Walmart and wondering about their rifle barrel's twist but I guarantee reloaders wanting to shooter longer bullets are. Many of todays factory rifles are plenty accurate for shooting long range but they can not shoot the better bullets. Wether you believe it or not it is costing them money.
 
You can pretend you know better than every small arms engineer on earth - literally all of them (nobody uses the fastest twist possible on any rifle anywhere in the world). Or you can accept that there are tradeoffs involved with twist rate. The vast majority of shooters using factory .300's will be best served with a more moderate twist rate. That is why they do it.
 
I guess we should all be driving cars with carburetors, cooking over open fires, and crapping outdoors. Times have changed. The barrel twists are not engineered for today. They are not doing studies on how many bullets of each weight are being sold. They are not doing market research to see what the end user prefers. They are simply doing what they have been doing for years. Hell, Nosler just came out with some of the most awesome long range cartridge this century will, most likely, see yet they chose to have the SAAMI spec be 3.4" vice a longer spec. They are also in the we did not use a fast enough twist barrel category, especially with the 28. Most people shooting the 28 will be using 180s which work fine in an 8 twist. Most reloaders would like to use the Berger 195s or the new Sierra 197 but can not. Even the 180 ELD-M and the 183 Sierras shoot best in an 8 twist. The other piece I think you are missing is the op was not just talking about your Walmart rifle. He was also talking about the availability of faster twist custom barrels. It is obvious I live in a different world than you because no one I know wants an 11 twist 30 cal or a 9.5 twist 7mm.
 
rfurman24 said:
I guess we should all be driving cars with carburetors, cooking over open fires, and crapping outdoors. Times have changed. The barrel twists are not engineered for today. They are not doing studies on how many bullets of each weight are being sold. They are not doing market research to see what the end user prefers. They are simply doing what they have been doing for years. Hell, Nosler just came out with some of the most awesome long range cartridge this century will, most likely, see yet they chose to have the SAAMI spec be 3.4" vice a longer spec. They are also in the we did not use a fast enough twist barrel category, especially with the 28. Most people shooting the 28 will be using 180s which work fine in an 8 twist. Most reloaders would like to use the Berger 195s or the new Sierra 197 but can not. Even the 180 ELD-M and the 183 Sierras shoot best in an 8 twist. The other piece I think you are missing is the op was not just talking about your Walmart rifle. He was also talking about the availability of faster twist custom barrels. It is obvious I live in a different world than you because no one I know wants an 11 twist 30 cal or a 9.5 twist 7mm.
Click to expand...
Then have him buy a custom gun or buy a factory gun and re barrel
If he has a savage it makes it easy .
 
All that I know is that ALL of the 6mm VMAX bullets I tried in 8 twist tubes went about 25 yards and exploded in joy. :mad: The 55, 65, 75, and 87's....NONE of them made the trip!! 2 different dasher tubes and a 6-47L. I did manage to get the some of the Nostler Balistic Tips down range, but with poor accuracy.

I get fast twist tubes....I truly do. I must, because I own a pile of them. I am into LR shooting. But the medium and slow twist tubes surly have their place. How many ZILLIONS of Remington and brand "X" 22 caliber rifles have been sold and shot with 14 twist tubes? Same with 9.5 twist 7's. My thoughts are that the main population of average Joe's out there don't have any need for fast/ultra fast twist tubes....and, that, my friends , is where the money is at!!

As far as the 10 twist 30 cal tubes. I shoot 230's and 240's with no problems in my 10 twist's. I run the 215's in my 11 twist tubes with no issues. Average Joe won't have any problems either!!

Just my .02,
Tod
 
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