Anti Seized for Stainless Barrel

[msalm]

I remember years back reading a post on this very topic. I had been using lubriplate which did in fact not prevent one stainless action from galling on me. One poster mentioned that as long as the lube was 'black', meaning it had moly in it, it worked well. I switched to a moly grease and have never had a problem since. That must be several hundred (300+) barrels ago.

 

[ireload2]

Galling or cold adhesive welding is a subject that deserves a sticky.
If you go find the engineering data at Carpenter or other stainless steel makers you will find a hierarchy of ways to prevent galling of stainless steels.
1. There are stainless steel alloys that are notorious for galling. 17-4 PH stainless is one of the worst and I call it gall-o-matic for a good reason.
If this material is running against itself the two different pieces should be of different hardnesses. Ideally you should avoid the use of a stainless steel couple where the combination of materials produce galling. When used in plier type clamps for surgical instruments 17-4 PH takes almost nothing to gall when they are super clean and have been sterilized in an autoclave. Hundreds of baby engineers learn this the hard way every year designing surgical instruments. I used to do the failure analysis on returns so I have seen a lot of it.
2. Fits between components should have a little clearance and lubrication. You cannot have much of this in surgical instruments.
3. Awful saw tooth threads should be avoided. The threads should have clean smooth flanks that will run together by hand with out grabbing.
4. Find a lube that has a very high film pressure. Do not over tighten the components.
5. Use Gall Tough or one of the Nitronic alloys like Nitronic 60 for at least one piece.
6. In the semiconductor world we used Nitronic 60 Helicoils to prevent galling along with electro-polished fasteners. We tried to get Nitronic 60 Keenserts too but the company usually wanted several milllion dollars worth of Keenserts paid for before they would run any.
7. Silver plated stainless fasteners were also used with the silver acting as lubricant
8. All titanium threaded fasteners was considered but it would have increased the cost of each machine about $6000 and we built several thousand machines in a good quarter.
>>>In addition to PFPE, Krytox grease also contains telomers of PTFE and in fact was designed as a liquid or grease form of PTFE.<<

Krytox is used a little in the semiconductor industry to lubricate O rings when they are installed. It costs about $35 to $75 an oz so I don't think you will want any of it. It does have a high resistance to out gassing in a vacuum. It is basically a grease of PTFE (not particles but the base material is the PTFE. I don't think it has any petroleum in it.

http://www.cartech.com/techarticles.aspx?id=1832

http://www.hpalloy.com/Alloys/wearResistant.aspx

If you have to use a stainless barrel make sure the threads are well machined with no chatter and it will thread into the receiver with out dragging.
Make sure the receiver has good threads. Use some grease, don't over tighten and use a carbon steel receiver.
BTW I hate stainless steel for all the grief it causes.

 

[Eddie Harren]

Better'n the funny papers!

 

[hogpatrol]

Better'n the funny papers!

Yeah, its never ceases to amaze me how some engineers and technical people have taken overthinking to an art form. My .02? Just slap some permatex never seize on it and screw the barrel on tight. Go shoot.

 

[nvbroncrider]

Stainless is horrible for galling and any dissimilar metal makes it worse. Especially if you have flow throw it can cause threads to "weld" together making it near impossible to pull apart. Called electrolysis if I recall correctly. I've used copper I've used nickel EP high pressure grease. All of them the problem with grease is you can get it hot enough for it to weep out especially in that application the copper stuff I've never had much luck with. The nickel has been the best for me more moisture resistant and withstands temperature fluctuations better but at the end of the day stuff does come apart without hammers torches saws chisels and punches.

 

[butchlambert]

So a SS barrel on CM receiver is worse?

Quote: Stainless is horrible for galling and any dissimilar metal makes it worse.

 

[Zero333]

I always use the same anti-seize on my barrels as on car exhaust headers and any threaded fastener that goes on the exhaust system.

I don't use the liquidy brush on stuff but the playdough like stuff.

 

[FtLMale]

I am new here, but came as I had a question.
I think there would be a simple recommendation of which anti-seizes/corrosion inhibitor to use.
When the barrel is SS, the receiver is Aluminum and the barrel nut is Aluminum as well (AR 15) there are two different things to look at. The Alum barrel nut threading onto the Alum receiver (anti-seize), and the SS barrel sliding into the Alum receiver (galvanic corrosion). Galvanic Corrosion vs Anti-Seize.
What do I use for each application?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Grease

 

[butchlambert]

I am new here, but came as I had a question.
I think there would be a simple recommendation of which anti-seizes/corrosion inhibitor to use.
When the barrel is SS, the receiver is Aluminum and the barrel nut is Aluminum as well (AR 15) there are two different things to look at. The Alum barrel nut threading onto the Alum receiver (anti-seize), and the SS barrel sliding into the Alum receiver (galvanic corrosion). Galvanic Corrosion vs Anti-Seize.
What do I use for each application?

My AR barrel doesn't screw into the receiver. It fits into the steel part and yes it has an aluminum nut.
As Dusty said-grease.

 

[waltk]

I am new here, but came as I had a question.
I think there would be a simple recommendation of which anti-seizes/corrosion inhibitor to use.
When the barrel is SS, the receiver is Aluminum and the barrel nut is Aluminum as well (AR 15) there are two different things to look at. The Alum barrel nut threading onto the Alum receiver (anti-seize), and the SS barrel sliding into the Alum receiver (galvanic corrosion). Galvanic Corrosion vs Anti-Seize.
What do I use for each application?

I use AeroShell Grease 33MS and the newest version AeroShell Grease 64 on my AR receiver and nut.
The tube states that this is a" synthetic grease for aircraft containing molybdenum disulfide".

 

[hogpatrol]

So a SS barrel on CM receiver is worse?

Quote: Stainless is horrible for galling and any dissimilar metal makes it worse.

Butch, You mean stainless on stainless? Similar metals gall. Dissimilar ones don't. That's why motor parts aren't all made out of the same metals. Just trying to clarify.

 

[butchlambert]

Butch, You mean stainless on stainless? Similar metals gall. Dissimilar ones don't. That's why motor parts aren't all made out of the same metals. Just trying to clarify.

On that old post the quote was what was posted earlier by another person. I asked if stainless and CM was bad I think.
quote: was posted by someone else. I just squeezed his little head and asked about a SS barrel and a CM receiver.
Is that clear? Probably not as I wrote it.

 

[FtLMale]

I use AeroShell Grease 33MS and the newest version AeroShell Grease 64 on my AR receiver and nut.
The tube states that this is a" synthetic grease for aircraft containing molybdenum disulfide".

Thanks, I ordered the AeroShell plus some Loctite 222MS and 272 for those things I don't want unscrewing.

 

[alinwa]

I had some problems with his reasoning in the beginning of that chapter. He attributed most of what stabilizes the joint as "axial preload" and relegates "lateral friction force" to a secondary role. To me, it seems that the whole reason that a given amount of axial preload is needed is to create sufficient friction between the barrel shoulder and the face of the action to prevent their shifting from side to side relative to each other.

If I may digress, most structural iron in buildings is assembled with high strength bolts tightened to specific torque values, that unlike the rivets that preceded them, do not take the shear forces imparted to the joint. Those forces are carried by the friction between the faces of the parts that is a function of how tight the bolts are tightened. The axial load of the fasteners creates the friction between the parts that is sufficient to prevent movement.

To me the similarity is obvious. For that reason, I wipe barrels shoulders of anti-seize with my fingertip, leaving only a thin film of oil to lubricate between barrel shoulder and action face. I want just enough lubrication to prevent galling, and no more, because I believe, that it is the friction in this area that is a major component in joint stability.

At some point, I would like to do and experiment with a pair of washers that had interlocking, v grooves running around their faces, that were lubricated, and have dry flat surfaces where they touched the action and barrel. The grooves would slide when the washers were rotated one against the other, but be prevented from shifting laterally by their interlocking V grooves. I would leave the other sides of the washers as turned, or possibly glass beaded, and dry.

My understanding of "axial preload" as used by Vaughn seems to differ from this. IMO it has nothing to do with friction and all to do with stretch. (Strain?)

As I read it, Vaughn's reasoning is to stretch, or pre-tension the assembly such that bolt thrust can't unload the joint.

Here's my analogy. You're testing explosive charges....you've built a pressure box which you've contained under a huge block of concrete. You've got to be sure the block is big enough not to shift, thereby buggering the readings. The block is your "axial preload"

If the block is too small, too light for a given load it must be made larger, heavier.

BTST a cartridge which produces more "bolt thust" requires a higher axial preload........ to keep it from LIFTING and shifting.

 

[BoydAllen]

My understanding of "axial preload" as used by Vaughn seems to differ from this. IMO it has nothing to do with friction and all to do with stretch. (Strain?)

As I read it, Vaughn's reasoning is to stretch, or pre-tension the assembly such that bolt thrust can't unload the joint.

Here's my analogy. You're testing explosive charges....you've built a pressure box which you've contained under a huge block of concrete. You've got to be sure the block is big enough not to shift, thereby buggering the readings. The block is your "axial preload"

If the block is too small, too light for a given load it must be made larger, heavier.

BTST a cartridge which produces more "bolt thust" requires a higher axial preload........ to keep it from LIFTING and shifting.

Yes, I got that, but did you notice that some materials did not stabilize the joint even with extreme tightening? My take is that it is because they provided too much lubrication. IMO you need both, enough tension and an something in the joint that allows it to be stable under that tension. You would not want to put teflon sheet in the interface of a structural steel joint that was secured with high strength bolts. One of my "brain storms" (possibly idiot ideas) is to make a pair of washers that have a high friction surface on one side and precisely interlocking circular grooves on the other. You would lube the grooved sides that would face each other but would be prevented from shifting by the interlocking V grooves, and leave the face of the action and shoulder of the barrel dry. The barrel threads would be treated in the normal manner.

 

[alinwa]

Yes, I got that, but did you notice that some materials did not stabilize the joint even with extreme tightening? My take is that it is because they provided too much lubrication. IMO you need both, enough tension and an something in the joint that allows it to be stable under that tension. You would not want to put teflon sheet in the interface of a structural steel joint that was secured with high strength bolts. One of my "brain storms" (possibly idiot ideas) is to make a pair of washers that have a high friction surface on one side and precisely interlocking circular grooves on the other. You would lube the grooved sides that would face each other but would be prevented from shifting by the interlocking V grooves, and leave the face of the action and shoulder of the barrel dry. The barrel threads would be treated in the normal manner.

Hmm, by golly now ya' got me thinking.... I'ma' have to go home and read it again it's been a few years. I'm purely guess-membering that it was when he'd exceeded the the threaded joint's strength, when the metal deformed under the strain, yielded.

I remember trying to get my favorite gunsmith to cut me an angled seat on the action and the barrel and he said "no..... just NO! the whole concept is flawed! You just need larger square abutting surfaces!" ie Larger shoulders...

As per usual, he was right.

Ohh well, I've never needed an excuse to reread 'Rifle Accuracy Facts'

 

[alinwa]

Well, I just browsed thru the chapter and realized I'd better siddown and shuddup until I'm back in "work mode"...... I can't wait til you get your lathe going. I'll be comparing some notes.

Thanks Boyd

out

al

 

[BoydAllen]

Well, I just browsed thru the chapter and realized I'd better siddown and shuddup until I'm back in "work mode"...... I can't wait til you get your lathe going. I'll be comparing some notes.

Thanks Boyd

out

al

Always good to hear from you Al.
Boyd

 

[Chris66]

I've had to saw off two barrels, bore the tenon out and send the actions back to BAT to have the treads cleaned up.

As recommended by Bruce Thom, Jet lube 550 from then on.

Jet lube 550 is the way to go