anschultz vs custom

[PWNolan]

So Anschutz does not have much of a chance running against the big dogs but the guy at the top of the ARA UL Hall of Fame shoots one.

Joe Besche used to shoot a Anschutz with a custom barrel on it. He was shooting a 2500X at the 2023 ARA Outdoor Nationals. I actually looked at his bench during the match to see what he was shooting. Checking the equipment list for the 2023 Indoor Nationals he was shooting a 2500X too

EDIT: I just realized I posted before reading the new posts above

 

[VLNBYR]

So Anschutz does not have much of a chance running against the big dogs but the guy at the top of the ARA UL Hall of Fame shoots one.

His rifle is an Anschutz in the same way a NASCAR racer is a Ford or Chevy.

 

[butchlambert]

I am a RF club shooter only. I started with a KK300 Walther with a home made tuner and a maple stock blank from Don Stith. It shoots very well, especially after I turned it over to a buddy. I bought the barreled action 1913 Anschutz from Jon Hammond, the present WVU rifle coach. Jon shot for the UK Olympic team. Jon traveled to the Anschutz factory and they hand picked and tested it before turning it over to Jon. It ain't new, but it has less than 2.000 rounds through it. After the 2008 Olympics he put it up as he now had a ???? damn old man memory. I bought the barreled action, put a Harrell tuner on it, had the trigger set for approx 1.5 oz, had a Terry Leonard stock inletted and bedded, and a 36X scope. I sent it to Joe Besche with 6 lots of Tenex. Joe said it didn't like any of the Tenex, but said it really liked the Midas+. Joe may have pulled my leg, but he said he wanted it as it was the best Anschutz that he has shot. I won 3 club matches with it against other Anschutz, Turbos, 2500X, and others. I now have a 2500X with 2 Shilen barrels, with each having a Holeshot tuners, Rotex stock, and a 48X March Highmaster scope. Built by Mark Penrod. In somebody else hands I think it could be great.
That is my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[PWNolan]

I am a RF club shooter only. I started with a KK300 Walther with a home made tuner and a maple stock blank from Don Stith. It shoots very well, especially after I turned it over to a buddy. I bought the barreled action 1913 Anschutz from Jon Hammond, the present WVU rifle coach. Jon shot for the UK Olympic team. Jon traveled to the Anschutz factory and they hand picked and tested it before turning it over to Jon. It ain't new, but it has less than 2.000 rounds through it. After the 2008 Olympics he put it up as he now had a ???? damn old man memory. I bought the barreled action, put a Harrell tuner on it, had the trigger set for approx 1.5 oz, had a Terry Leonard stock inletted and bedded, and a 36X scope. I sent it to Joe Besche with 6 lots of Tenex. Joe said it didn't like any of the Tenex, but said it really liked the Midas+. Joe may have pulled my leg, but he said he wanted it as it was the best Anschutz that he has shot. I won 3 club matches with it against other Anschutz, Turbos, 2500X, and others. I now have a 2500X with 2 Shilen barrels, with each having a Holeshot tuners, Rotex stock, and a 48X March Highmaster scope. Built by Mark Penrod. In somebody else hands I think it could be great.
That is my story and I'm sticking to it.

So Butch I'm curious, why did you decide to have a custom built on a 2500X?

 

[doclu60]

So Anschutz does not have much of a chance running against the big dogs but the guy at the top of the ARA UL Hall of Fame shoots one.

John in post #22 pretty much nailed it. Joe also has (within the last couple of years) a Suhl I have seen him shoot in matches.

1Merlin, the action does not define what a custom is. The modifications to a factory rifle, essentially just leaving the receiver and fire control the same (if not possible to use a R700 trigger) is not any different than using an action that needs to be fully built. Both are customs. Joe's Anschutz rifles are not the same as a factory rifle, they are customs in every definition of the word. Hope this answers your question I quoted above.

Scott

 

[1Merlin]

Totally understood Scott. I play with a closet full of Anschutz of various flavors but my go to rifle has a Stiller action with a Shilen Ratchet attached. I honestly don't know if it is any more accurate than some of my re-barreled Anschutz rifles but I believe it to be more consistent

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I am smiling reading all of these replies about what is a custom Anschutz. I would never call any of my Anschutz's a custom but rather modified at the most.
the moniker of custom is too loosely used even ANA I feel should not be labeling their factory reworked rifles as customs. I think Master gunsmith would have been better and more aligned with their heritage of rifle making.
Every Match 54 I shoot started as a mass produced from the factory Match 54. every part for the action on them except for the barrel, stock and firing pin springs came from Anschutz and in some cases the firing pin spring came from Anschutz as well. nothing on it is handmade or sourced from another maker. for those not in the know the Anschutz Match 54 has been produced with the same basic action and bolt design since 1958.

There has been mention about Joe Besche's Anschutz's what some forget and what amazed me is that his rifle at least this one pictured used a factory stock with a bench plate. but then everyone forgets it is not the rifle that makes the shooter, it is the shooter who makes the rifle. and in Joe's case not enough credit is being given to him as he made his custom Anschutz's as famous as they are as some refer to them. I have worked on and shot Anschutz match 54's for the last 12 years I can't imagine what is anything different from Joe's and what I shoot to make it a custom.
I don't know Joe and if I ever had a chance to speak with him my main question would be why Anschutz.

Lee

 

[butchlambert]

So Butch I'm curious, why did you decide to have a custom built on a 2500X?

I am an equipment hound. A person that never practices and only shoots one match a month needs all the help he can get. I do know though that this is not the way to success.

 

[dgeesaman]

I don't know Joe and if I ever had a chance to speak with him my main question would be why Anschutz.

Lee

I wonder if he shims his bolt. 54s bolts can be shimmed to adjust headspace. I know of Olympic shooters who have found improvements this way.

 

[PWNolan]

I wonder if he shims his bolt. 54s bolts can be shimmed to adjust headspace. I know of Olympic shooters who have found improvements this way.

Unless headspace is excessive or too tight and causing issues there's no real reason to shim the bolt

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I wonder if he shims his bolt. 54s bolts can be shimmed to adjust headspace. I know of Olympic shooters who have found improvements this way.

I am not sure why you would need to shim a bolt on a Match 54. if HS is that sloppy better to pull the barrel and set HS that way.
I played with HS on Match 54's using different bolt handles didn't see any difference on how they shot. I did see how it could make the bolt cycling easier.
the 54 is such a simple design if you can make the firing pin move freely to provide consistent hit not much else to do. I am currently playing with firing springs. because the 54 action was also used for CF they have firing pin springs that have a higher spring weight/rate (thicker diameter) keep in mind that I am talking about the early wing safety models. IMO the newer models don't have the ability to provide consistent ignition for BR.

Lee

 

[dgeesaman]

Unless headspace is excessive or too tight and causing issues there's no real reason to shim the bolt

Headspace tends to grow from wear in the bolt components.

I know shooters who have used the same shims to restore headspace but also go further and tweak headspace as a tuning parameter of sorts. (This is certainly something to be very careful with!)

Haven’t done it myself.

 

[PWNolan]

Headspace tends to grow from wear in the bolt components.

I know shooters who have used the same shims to restore headspace but also go further and tweak headspace as a tuning parameter of sorts. (This is certainly something to be very careful with!)

Haven’t done it myself.

It takes years of use for headspace to get to the point where it's actually an issue. I have a old Rem 513T from 1946 that swallows a no go gauge yet it shoots fantastic

If you ever get the opportunity read Calfee's article called "Partners in Crime" regarding headspace and ignition. I think you'll be enlightened regarding rimfire headspace as it relates to overall accuracy

I'll give you the condensed version of that article. He used his 52 test action and moved headspace out in increments and tested accuracy. No change in accuracy until headspace was so far out he started getting light strikes and misfires. Another point he makes is that shimming a bolt that's had mating surfaces worn in together for years is also not a real good idea. Maybe a last ditch effort to get an old rifle shooting safely again

The whole bolt shimming to improve accuracy of a rifle that has headspace in acceptable spec is snake oil

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

It takes years of use for headspace to get to the point where it's actually an issue. I have a old Rem 513T from 1946 that swallows a no go gauge yet it shoots fantastic

If you ever get the opportunity read Calfee's article called "Partners in Crime" regarding headspace and ignition. I think you'll be enlightened regarding rimfire headspace as it relates to overall accuracy

I'll give you the condensed version of that article. He used his 52 test action and moved headspace out in increments and tested accuracy. No change in accuracy until headspace was so far out he started getting light strikes and misfires. Another point he makes is that shimming a bolt that's had mating surfaces worn in together for years is also not a real good idea. Maybe a last ditch effort to get an old rifle shooting safely again

The whole bolt shimming to improve accuracy of a rifle that has headspace in acceptable spec is snake oil

I agree anytime HS would affect accuracy is when it is so excessive you start to have inconsistent ignition.
screwing with ignition is where you start to see probelms.

Lee

 

[wkdickinson]

I started down the RFBR rabbit hole a couple years ago with an old 1413 which I bought used 20+ years ago and shot at 50', with a sling, indoors for many years. This year our club became an ARA affiliate, so most of my shooting is club-level. In retrospect I would have been much better served to have sold the Anschutz and built a new custom rifle, on a 2500X action etc. But I didn't, because I already own this one. Now after a couple years, some great help/advise from Lee (Hi-NV Shooter) and A LOT of money I have a rifle that shoots really good, but maybe not great (of course much of that can also be attributed to the shooter) - new Shilen barrel installed by Evelio McDonald, trigger lighten to 2 oz. by Todd Toenges, pillar bedded by Alex Sitman, lightened tuner by Lee, custom rear bag rider, by me. It is very competitive at local matches. Yes, it's still an Anschutz 1413, but is it really. Was it money and effort well spent - probably not. But it is still, my favorite rifle .

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Headspace tends to grow from wear in the bolt components.

I know shooters who have used the same shims to restore headspace but also go further and tweak headspace as a tuning parameter of sorts. (This is certainly something to be very careful with!)

Haven’t done it myself.

Did you actually see the difference they claim? if not I would put it in the same file as rim thickness and weight sorting and leave it alone.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I started down the RFBR rabbit hole a couple years ago with an old 1413 which I bought used 20+ years ago and shot at 50', with a sling, indoors for many years. This year our club became an ARA affiliate, so most of my shooting is club-level. In retrospect I would have been much better served to have sold the Anschutz and built a new custom rifle, on a 2500X action etc. But I didn't, because I already own this one. Now after a couple years, some great help/advise from Lee (Hi-NV Shooter) and A LOT of money I have a rifle that shoots really good, but maybe not great (of course much of that can also be attributed to the shooter) - new Shilen barrel installed by Evelio McDonald, trigger lighten to 2 oz. by Todd Toenges, pillar bedded by Alex Sitman, lightened tuner by Lee, custom rear bag rider, by me. It is very competitive at local matches. Yes, it's still an Anschutz 1413, but is it really. Was it money and effort well spent - probably not. But it is still, my favorite rifle .

I think for shooters like you and myself the Anschutz's are good for those that like to tinker. but a lot has to do with doing good against the custom rifles. and I do believe your last match you won congratulations.

it's all for fun and that what's important having fun.

Lee

 

[dgeesaman]

Did you actually see the difference they claim? if not I would put it in the same file as rim thickness and weight sorting and leave it alone.

Lee

No, I was not shooting rimfire when they were preparing her to win the Olympic gold medal.

They have a lot of nerve doing that without either of us present.

As for me I may do some experimenting this winter. Or I may not. Depends if I have free time and sufficient curiosity about it.

David

 

[wkdickinson]

I think for shooters like you and myself the Anschutz's are good for those that like to tinker. but a lot has to do with doing good against the custom rifles. and I do believe your last match you won congratulations.

it's all for fun and that what's important having fun.

Lee

Lee,

I agree completely - it is all about having fun! Like I said, it is very a very competitive rifle at the "club-match" level:

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Lee,

I agree completely - it is all about having fun! Like I said, it is very a very competitive rifle at the "club-match" level:
View attachment 1497955

Yes, indeed it is competitive! I have few of those myself.
I know, it is a 2nd place finish and just a club match, but it is my most cherished as it was done against the number one ARA UL shooter that year and a Calfee spec rifle called Paladin.


Lee