Another 'finding the lands' story

[jeffreybehr]

Pls don't laugh--this is the first time in more than 50 years of reloading that I've done this.

After ordering a new Shilen barrel* for my Savage 12 Benchrest from NSS...
http://northlandshooterssupply.com/match-grade-barrels-2/shilen-savage/
...I thought I ought to get serious about this, so bought a Hornady (Stony Point) O.A.L. Gauge and drilled-and-tapped case. I practiced on my Savage 10 Predator Hunter Max 1 in 6.5CM. Found that the OAL-to-the-lands measurements were more consistent when using an ogive-finder adapter for the calipers...

...instead of trying to measure OAL to the tip of meplat when using an HP bullet.

More later when I get my barrel installed.


* 28" bull (1" OD at the muzzle) Stainless Select Match in 6.5 Creedmoor

 

[hoz53]

Pls don't laugh--this is the first time in more than 50 years of reloading that I've done this.

After ordering a new Shilen barrel* for my Savage 12 Benchrest from NSS...
http://northlandshooterssupply.com/match-grade-barrels-2/shilen-savage/
...I thought I ought to get serious about this, so bought a Hornady (Stony Point) O.A.L. Gauge and drilled-and-tapped case. I practiced on my Savage 10 Predator Hunter Max 1 in 6.5CM. Found that the OAL-to-the-lands measurements were more consistent when using an ogive-finder adapter for the calipers...

...instead of trying to measure OAL to the tip of meplat when using an HP bullet.

More later when I get my barrel installed.


* 28" bull (1" OD at the muzzle) Stainless Select Match in 6.5 Creedmoor

Yes the length usually varies more than base to ogive. I can't get consistency at all out of my stony point tool. The measurement can vary a lot just depending on how hard you push the rod and I can't push it exactly the same each time. Think I'll put mine in the sale bin.. A person can save some money and use the Wheeler method to find touch consistently. I found that out to late. Good luck with that Shilen on your savage- mine shot great

 

[Texas10]

I have had great difficulty getting consistent OAL measurements using my Hornaday OAL tool, so I got creative one day and came up with something better.

I took one of my sized and ready to load (previously fire formed) cases and drilled and tapped the flash hole to fit an old segmented cleaning rod (6-32).

Seated a bullet long, mounted it on the cleaning rod and slid it into the chamber. I could easily feel the bullet stick in the lands upon retraction. I seated it a bit deeper, and repeated the process until I could feel no stick upon retraction.

It's amazingly simple and effective. With some loads that my notes indicated were seated .015 off the lands, I was actually .012 IN the lands, which explained the premature pressure indicators I was seeing, and random fliers.

I suppose you could also take the Hornaday modified case and neck size it to do the same thing. And then note the difference in base to shoulder measurement between your fire formed brass and the Hornaday modified case.

 

[USMCDOC]

I suppose you could also take the Hornaday modified case and neck size it to do the same thing.

You just gave me an idea! Not that i don't think that this ain't been thought of before.. but yes, size the neck so that the bullet won't move.. take a pc of brass rod long enough and tap it one end. So you seat a bullet long so that you know it will touch the lands. Place it by hand into the chamber and slowly close the bolt till it stops.. you will have to remove the bolt to remove the "modified" case with the bullet with the tapped brass rod. Keep doing it till finally the bolt closes easy.. And at the same time, your seating die will be at the point that it needs to be at for load testing.

 

[Richard Jones]

Having been a staunch advocate for many years for the 'split neck' method of finding the lands, I have since eaten the requisite amount of crow and feel that the method shown on Wheeler Accuracy website is The Best. I, too, found that either the split neck or the Stoney Point tool method resulted in bullets into the lands when I thought they weren't.

Don't believe me? Try all 3 methods and prove it to yourself.

 

[tenring]

There are many tools available to use. No matter which you choose, the only certain method to find the lands is to look carefully (I use a jewelers loupe) for a square mark where the ogive touches the lands. Seat the bullet .005" lower repeatedly until you can no longer see those marks. Keep a record of that reading and use the same identical tools to find it each time.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

What I like to do is seat a bullet slightly long into an empty case, place it into the chamber, and gently see if the bolt will close. Hopefully won't. Gradually seat further into the case until the bolt will gently close. At this point, raise and lower the bolt handle repeatedly, etching the bullet with the lans. Remove the case and observe the width of the etching about the diameter of the bullet. Measure the width of the etching with calipers...this measurement roughly represents the amount of "jam" into the lans. (What some would call "touch" might actually be a .010 - .040 "jam"...touch and jam are hard to pin down when we refer to one another about it. One man's "touch" may be another man's "jam"!)

Next, with a Sinclair Micrometer Top mounted to the top of a Wilson Seater Die, I can dial out any amount of the "jam" that I desire...to the bare edge, and call that "touching". This sets the stage to commence setting "jump" from a very accurate "touch" index.

Dan

P.S. I guess that I should clarify that the initial seating(s) of the bullet is done with the micrometer top/Wilson Seater Die.

 

[Zero333]

I measure the coal to the lands and then the coal where the bullet jams in the lands. Everything in between is in the lands but not jammed.

 

[Kodiak99317]

Best way IMO by www.wheeleraccuracy.com

 

[desert shooter]

+1 on the wheeler accuracy method. I tried it for the first time after seeing the video posted and it was remarkably easy and accurate. I was using the modified case method previously for years , but like the wheeler method much better.

 

[fguffey]

I took one of my sized and ready to load (previously fire formed) cases and drilled and tapped the flash hole to fit an old segmented cleaning rod (6-32).

Why drill and tap? I drill the primer pocket/flash hole out to a diameter that will accommodate a cleaning rod, I decide if I want to determine the case clearance etc. and then seat a bullet. After seating a bullet I remove the bolt then use the cleaning rod to push the case out of the case and stop pushing when the bullet hits the lands. For most reloaders it gets real complicated when the bullet hits the lands. For me the test case becomes .000" (zero) off the lands when the bullet contacts the rifling. I do not want the inconsistent Hornady tool involved, it is much easier for me to use the test case as a transfer when adjusting the seating die. Most reloaders have no clue what a transfer is so they struggle with the Hornady/Sinclair tool; they adjust and measure and adjust and measure and then they get bored.

F. Guffey

 

[JAM-MAN]

Why drill and tap? I drill the primer pocket/flash hole out to a diameter that will accommodate a cleaning rod, I decide if I want to determine the case clearance etc. and then seat a bullet. After seating a bullet I remove the bolt then use the cleaning rod to push the case out of the case and stop pushing when the bullet hits the lands. For most reloaders it gets real complicated when the bullet hits the lands. For me the test case becomes .000" (zero) off the lands when the bullet contacts the rifling. I do not want the inconsistent Hornady tool involved, it is much easier for me to use the test case as a transfer when adjusting the seating die. Most reloaders have no clue what a transfer is so they struggle with the Hornady/Sinclair tool; they adjust and measure and adjust and measure and then they get bored.

F. Guffey

what is a transfer?

 

[spife7980]

what is a transfer?

Its remarkably easy to explain but it might take him months to.

 

[jds holler]

This could drive a guy nuts! Please tell me what is wrong with my method.

1: Clean chamber and throat with bronze brush and blow with air.
2: Take a case that has been fired in that chamber, and modify the neck to provide a comfortable "slip fit". (stiff but finger tight in or out)
3: Drop case in the port, and let the bolt pick it up and chamber it, closing bolt to "in battery" position.
4: Extract and measure OAL.

Repeat this several times with a few bullets from that box, and note your consistently repeatable OAL. This is often +/- one or two thousandths, but sometimes an exact repeatable measurement.

I take this to be my "to the lands" measurement for that particular bullet. Am I all screwed up?? jd

 

[kyreloader]

This could drive a guy nuts! Please tell me what is wrong with my method.

1: Clean chamber and throat with bronze brush and blow with air.
2: Take a case that has been fired in that chamber, and modify the neck to provide a comfortable "slip fit". (stiff but finger tight in or out)
3: Drop case in the port, and let the bolt pick it up and chamber it, closing bolt to "in battery" position.
4: Extract and measure OAL.

Repeat this several times with a few bullets from that box, and note your consistently repeatable OAL. This is often +/- one or two thousandths, but sometimes an exact repeatable measurement.

I take this to be my "to the lands" measurement for that particular bullet. Am I all screwed up?? jd

That would be your JAM length.

 

[jds holler]

That would be your JAM length.

I think I agree with that. -- and even that depends somewhat upon the tension fit of my bullet in the case. Seems to me that we are going to have some plus/minus error factor that we're just gonna have to accept: unless we have a consistent measure of force to be used by any of the systems.

 

[SenderoMan]

Thanks for attaching the Wheeler video. Have not seen that method, but have tried others.

 

[Link]

Say you don't know if you have jam or jump. All you know is what your gun likes to shoot dots. You measure from the ogive to the head. Isn't that the only measurement you have to know?

thanks Link

 

[savagedasher]

Many of lands change .001 per hundred rounds Why is the big deal ?
Your target should show . Most start off the lands Or I do because of the pressure spike you get from you get from near or touching .
Chamber all is fine . Larry

 

[jeffreybehr]

The new Shilen barrel* and other parts arrived yesterday. I got the barrel installed in about an hour, apparently successfully--I haven't shot it yet, but the bolt won't close on the no-go gage and will close on the go-gage and, with a just-right 'feel', on the not-resized cases shot in my Savage 10, and the bolt will close on all the factory rounds I have, all Hornady.

I just now fired a primer; it went BANG...YAAAAAAAAA! More info on the rebarreling here...
http://www.savageshooters.com/showt...o-6-5-Creedmoor-with-pics&p=401764#post401764


I now understand that there are about as many ways of finding the lands as there are measurists, but I've got the Hornady tool, and that's what I'll use. This evening I measured a half-dozen bullets with no problems at all. I used no more than three different bullets of the same type if the results among those three were virtually identical (= within one-thousandths-inch) and up to five if the extreme spread was more than one-thousandth; I averaged those lengths.

Using the same bullet several times, the variance was no more than one-thousandth- inch, so I'm happy with the consistency of the tool and my technique.

Now to load those OCW strings. Will be shooting four different 129-130g. bullets, all with Reloader19, starting at 44g. and going thru 47g. in one-half-grain steps. The bullets are Sierra TMK130s, Berger VLDH and VLDT130s, and Nosler ABLR129s. BTW, the shooting sequence the #1 shot of EVERY load first before the #2 shot of each of them before the #3 shot, etc., is something I've never thought of and surely dilutes the affects of the inherent and unavoidable variables in a half-day of shooting. Initially will be breaking-in the new barrel and realigning the scope with some factory loads and also some reloads using V-Max95s. The 'cleaning' during break-in will be simply running two patches saturated with Slip2000 (CLP) thru the bore.

Received and installed this week a Lee Collet Necksizing Die and will be using that, along with my Forster micrometer seating die, to assemble these loads.

I've assembled using Photoshop a new target based on one offered on this site. Mine is designed with three-wide by four-high bulls with about 4-1/2" vertical and 4" horizontal spacing between bulls when printed at 13" wide by 19" high.


If you want a hi-rez version of it, e-mail me at jeffreybehr(at)cox(dot)net. FWIW, these photo-printed targets are no bargain at a couple dollars each for paper** and ink, but they're sure convenient.

* in 6.5 Creedmoor instead the original 6.5-284.
** Fortunately I have an almost-full 50box of the Epson premium matte paper I don't use for anything else, so until I replace the empty box, the variable cost is only for ink.