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another "Bullseye" Pistol thread...SW 41?

I am seeking counsel on the best rimfire pistol under $2,000 for 25-yard competition. I know that this is a recurring conversation on this forum and others. I am just ensuring that I am not missing something.

Competition: My local club has a rimfire pistol league. The first course of fire is at 25 yards untimed for 30 rounds. The second course of fire is 4 strings of 5 rounds each with each having a 10 second time limit.

Current Setup: I currently shoot a Volquartsen Scorpion with red dot, and my son shoots a Mark II with Volquartsen internals and upper and red dot. We will continue to shoot these two guns, but I also want to shoot iron sights. I considered using my 6" SW 617, but the timed component would make that challenging.

Question: What would you recommend for shooting this competition with iron sights? I am leaning toward the SW 41 or another Volquartsen Scorpion.
 
I shot a 41 when I first started in bullseye matches, then I built up a 1911 frame for a Marvel Precision top end. The Marvel shot smaller groups @ 50 yds than the 41 . I learned how to do a roll trigger job for the 1911 frame which for me was a big improvement over “ break like glass “ trigger pull.
My scores went up from low-mid expert with the 41 to low - mid Master scores with the Marvel and a roll trigger.
A few years later I picked up a Ruger MK III 22-45, I put in all the ignition parts (for a MK II) Volquartsen sells and removed the loaded chamber indicator replaced with a plug. The gun fit me well with Roco grips, had a very good trigger and I shot my highest outdoor score ever - 869. I similarly setup four 22-45‘s for friends and all performed excellently. The Ruger was extremely reliable with CCI SV and Eley Target.
I prefer the Marvel but they take some magazine tuning to get 100% reliability and a good trigger pull isn’t easy or cheap.
I shot primarily with an Ultradot red dot sights.

note: new 41’s seem to have problems from what I’ve read.
 
Today I was in the right place at the right time. I came home with a 1995 built 41 that looks like new. I had a chance to shoot it at 15 yards first. No miscues and pretty much just made the first hole get a tad larger.....for less than 700.00. Tomorrow I will shoot groups and decide what ammo it like.
 
I shot Bullseye for several years and in that you shoot basically a rimfire and a 1911 45ACP . Like a lot of people you accumulate sev different pistols looking for the ONE!! Then you learn the hard truth that it IS the Indian….not the arrow! For that course of fire putting a Marvel upper on a dedicated 1911 frame made the most sense as your hand goes on the same grip. I shot the S&W41 and they are a wonderful work of art but as much as I like them I don’t think they would beat the Marvel’s. You can buy them from plinkers to various levels of accuracy. You’d have to check their website to check if they offer them w/metallic sights as I used Ultadots on all my pistols.
 
I spent an hour talking to a "M41" gunsmith at Clark's Custom guns this year. This guy had smithed around 2000 M41's of all vintages. He had seen M41 slides that were curved due to the impact of thousands of rounds. As a rule, older M41's are softer, sometimes "a lot softer" than later ones. He recommended SV ammunition. I think his most common problem were rounds not feeding or ejecting due to out of square bolt faces and issues with extractor tension.

About late model M41's, the gunsmith said they are better machined and made out of better alloys than ever before. This does not mean they are more reliable or accurate, just that they are better built, and made out of better materials. The gunsmith had encountered late model M41's that had their own function issues.

When I asked about accuracy, I was glad to hear George and the Gunsmith both hesitating. Accuracy in a rimfire firearm ultimately depends on the ammunition. Lets assume the chambering job is right, the tube is good, ignition is positive, etc, then eventually the shooter will see lot to lot differences in accuracy. This is something that can be seen in rimfire rifles, I cannot hold that hard with a pistol to see lot to lot ammunition variations. Because I have had my Anschutz lot tested, I know for a fact that match ammunition varies between lots. And it is surprising how much it varies.

The Clark gunsmith said their M41's average 0.75 to 1.0 inch ten shot groups at 50 yards. Given the X ring is 1.3 inches, their M41's will meet their guarantee that the pistol will hold the X ring.

With a pistol, I am happy to break 800, I think my high is in the 830's. People who shoot 850's are God's in comparison to me. While I like my M46 and M41, I have had more stove pipes and squibs in the M41 than with my Ruger MKII's. And I think that is because the Ruger has a more robust ignition system. Weak ignition systems lead to weak ignition. Weak ignition will create a lot of stove pipes and failures to eject. When I come back from a match with a M41, I blow out the firing pin channel with compressed air. I found a firing pin swimming in the stuff, and oil in there acts as a damper, reducing the energy of the firing pin strike. I have replaced my M41 mainsprings and recoil springs. Always put new recoil springs in old M41's. Whether the new mainspring is a reliability improvement, I can't tell.

I do believe my M41 has a smoother recoil and less muzzle lift than my Rugers. I think that is due to the weight distribution of the M41 slide. Triggers tend to be outstanding. A M41 is simple to field strip, and I love that. I do think a M41 is an excellent competition pistol design.

Clark's Custom guns did a trigger job on a Ruger MKII of mine, and what a tremondous difference that made. Very little take up, crisp break, just a little over travel. It is hard to over emphasize the importance of a great trigger to good groups.

If the mechanical accuracy is the same between pistols, then what makes the difference is ergonomics. How does it fit your hands? Does pulling the trigger wave the pistol around? Things like that.

Many Bullseye shooters use a 22 lr frame that is identical to a 1911. That way, they don't have to relearn hand and finger position when going from the 22 lr and a 45 ACP. If you are going to shoot in an indoor 22lr match, a M41 is an excellent pistol to use. Finding one may be harder than wanting one.
 
What kind of scores do you shoot now?
Have you surpassed the ability of what you use now?
A good coach will do more in a few sessions than what ever the “best “ is this week.
I know of a fellow that qualified for the Olympic team using a well worn Browning Buckmark.
Once again, more the Indian than the arrow.
 
I spent an hour talking to a "M41" gunsmith at Clark's Custom guns this year. This guy had smithed around 2000 M41's of all vintages. He had seen M41 slides that were curved due to the impact of thousands of rounds. As a rule, older M41's are softer, sometimes "a lot softer" than later ones. He recommended SV ammunition. I think his most common problem were rounds not feeding or ejecting due to out of square bolt faces and issues with extractor tension.

About late model M41's, the gunsmith said they are better machined and made out of better alloys than ever before. This does not mean they are more reliable or accurate, just that they are better built, and made out of better materials. The gunsmith had encountered late model M41's that had their own function issues.

When I asked about accuracy, I was glad to hear George and the Gunsmith both hesitating. Accuracy in a rimfire firearm ultimately depends on the ammunition. Lets assume the chambering job is right, the tube is good, ignition is positive, etc, then eventually the shooter will see lot to lot differences in accuracy. This is something that can be seen in rimfire rifles, I cannot hold that hard with a pistol to see lot to lot ammunition variations. Because I have had my Anschutz lot tested, I know for a fact that match ammunition varies between lots. And it is surprising how much it varies.

The Clark gunsmith said their M41's average 0.75 to 1.0 inch ten shot groups at 50 yards. Given the X ring is 1.3 inches, their M41's will meet their guarantee that the pistol will hold the X ring.

With a pistol, I am happy to break 800, I think my high is in the 830's. People who shoot 850's are God's in comparison to me. While I like my M46 and M41, I have had more stove pipes and squibs in the M41 than with my Ruger MKII's. And I think that is because the Ruger has a more robust ignition system. Weak ignition systems lead to weak ignition. Weak ignition will create a lot of stove pipes and failures to eject. When I come back from a match with a M41, I blow out the firing pin channel with compressed air. I found a firing pin swimming in the stuff, and oil in there acts as a damper, reducing the energy of the firing pin strike. I have replaced my M41 mainsprings and recoil springs. Always put new recoil springs in old M41's. Whether the new mainspring is a reliability improvement, I can't tell.

I do believe my M41 has a smoother recoil and less muzzle lift than my Rugers. I think that is due to the weight distribution of the M41 slide. Triggers tend to be outstanding. A M41 is simple to field strip, and I love that. I do think a M41 is an excellent competition pistol design.

Clark's Custom guns did a trigger job on a Ruger MKII of mine, and what a tremondous difference that made. Very little take up, crisp break, just a little over travel. It is hard to over emphasize the importance of a great trigger to good groups.

If the mechanical accuracy is the same between pistols, then what makes the difference is ergonomics. How does it fit your hands? Does pulling the trigger wave the pistol around? Things like that.

Many Bullseye shooters use a 22 lr frame that is identical to a 1911. That way, they don't have to relearn hand and finger position when going from the 22 lr and a 45 ACP. If you are going to shoot in an indoor 22lr match, a M41 is an excellent pistol to use. Finding one may be harder than wanting one.
That is a wealth of information on the SW41. It is good to hear that newer 41s are well-built as they might be easier for me to come by than an older one.
 
What kind of scores do you shoot now?
Have you surpassed the ability of what you use now?
A good coach will do more in a few sessions than what ever the “best “ is this week.
I know of a fellow that qualified for the Olympic team using a well worn Browning Buckmark.
Once again, more the Indian than the arrow.
Right now, I am shooting 494/500, but that is with a red dot. I am looking to enter also with iron sights. I certainly have room to improve.
 
High Standard makes some nice examlles. I would look for an older model, not the recent productions. I bought a supermatic citation 7" fluted in extremely good condition for 800 bucks a couple years back.
 
What kind of scores do you shoot now?
Have you surpassed the ability of what you use now?
A good coach will do more in a few sessions than what ever the “best “ is this week.
I know of a fellow that qualified for the Olympic team using a well worn Browning Buckmark.
Once again, more the Indian than the arrow.
Absolutely ^^^^^^^
 
4 strings of 5 rounds each with each having a 10 second time limit.
ISSF rapid fire pistols are now 22lr. what are olympic competitors using?

M41- In the 70s, my hightest slow fire score in Bullseye competition, was with a S&W 41 HB. But not reliable in timed & rapid events. Returned to factory. No improvement. Sold it.

Had all the High Standards & Ruger Mk 1, short & long barrels. Rugers had trigger work done.

Bottom line, a 90% shooter is still that. The gun doesnt make that much difference.

A High Master, out of all five classes/ skill levels, may be the only one to tell the difference in accuracy?

Search here https://www.bullseyeforum.net/
04_PARDINI_All_in_one_SP_Rapid_Fire_-_Munich_2016_ISSF_World_Cup.jpg
 
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Right now, I am shooting 494/500, but that is with a red dot. I am looking to enter also with iron sights. I certainly have room to improve.
You ought to be looking to test fire one of these

xZF2djR.jpg


Feinwerkbaugh AW93, which is still in production. http://www.champchoice.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=35570 Grips are about $500.00, but you can get them for your hand

Or a Hammerli

eQ5WbJU.jpg


The owners of these older Hammerli's love them. A modern version is here: http://www.champchoice.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=2838613
 
You ought to be looking to test fire one of these

xZF2djR.jpg


Feinwerkbaugh AW93, which is still in production. http://www.champchoice.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=35570 Grips are about $500.00, but you can get them for your hand

Or a Hammerli

eQ5WbJU.jpg


The owners of these older Hammerli's love them. A modern version is here: http://www.champchoice.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=2838613
That is certainly an interesting piece. I will walk the line this week and see what other pistols are being used. There are a lot of Rugers with aftermarket parts.
 
I shot my new/used 41 off the bench at 25 yards with various ammo with 5 shot groups. Federal Auto Match grouped at .61 and then retested at .55. This was surprising to me but the gun likes it. Ely EPS, 4 shots in a small hole than one that opened it to .61. Cci sv was 1.2 but this case is the worst shooting case I have ever owned. Wolf Match Target that my Sako 78 shot into .091 was 1.28 out of the m41. Looks like the Fed will be it. Not shooting up the Ely in the handgun, I am not good enough for it to help, lol. The .55 group had 4 inside the x ring on a 25yd NRA target with the fifth cutting the x.
 
I shot my new/used 41 off the bench at 25 yards with various ammo with 5 shot groups. Federal Auto Match grouped at .61 and then retested at .55. This was surprising to me but the gun likes it. Ely EPS, 4 shots in a small hole than one that opened it to .61. Cci sv was 1.2 but this case is the worst shooting case I have ever owned. Wolf Match Target that my Sako 78 shot into .091 was 1.28 out of the m41. Looks like the Fed will be it. Not shooting up the Ely in the handgun, I am not good enough for it to help, lol. The .55 group had 4 inside the x ring on a 25yd NRA target with the fifth cutting the x.
That is encouraging to hear. Is your Model 41 newer or older?
 

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