Annealing temperature indicators

[itchyTF]

Which is preferred - the crayons or liquid?

 

[CPorter]

Crayons are hard to see and hard to get a decent mark in my experience. The liquid is easier to apply and see the results but is also messier..

 

[BoydAllen]

Liquid

 

[6BRinNZ]

+1 on the liquid. The sticks are designed for dabbing on an already hot surface. If you are fast you can dab a hot neck with a stick once its out of the flame. I can't easily get liquid higher than 450 so I put that on the shoulder down to the base and used a 650 stick to dab on the neck/shoulder once it popped out of the flame (I use a bench source annealer so timing is very consistent)....liquid would be way easier.

 

[tenring]

I bought 650 Tempilaq liquid; brush one swipe vertically on the neck. When I begin turning into the flame with my cordless screwdriver, the mark disappears at once, before neck shows any orange color. Stopped using it, a $15 waste. Any suggestions?

 

[6BRinNZ]

maybe try it on the inside of the neck(?). I always figure the flame is going to be real hot so exposing the liquid directly to the flame won't achieve the outcome. I used junked lapua cases to setup the timing so putting liquid on the inside of the neck (my original intention) wasn't going to be an issue.

Man - I wish I could order liquids over the internet, it was going to take about 4 months to get tempilaq liquids in from a retailer...

 

[260Ravage]

Tenring: I use 650deg. Tempilaq same as you. I put just a dab on the case about 3/8" below the shoulder. It does come in direct contact with the flame. As the neck is being heated the heat transfers down the case and when the tempilaq melts,,you have provided the right time/temp to the neck for proper annealing. I anneal often and it works. Do not give up.

 

[BoydAllen]

Ken Light probably knows more about case annealing than anyone that I can think of. He has been making annealing machines for longer than anyone that I know of. If I remember correctly, it is his opinion that if you see any glow, even in a dark room, you have gotten the necks too hot. There is a lot of different advice out there about annealing. It seems to me that the majority of it is the blind leading the blind.

I suggest that you print this, and read it more than once...carefully.
http://www.kenlightmfg.com/cartridgecaseannealer.htm

 

[RonAKA]

I like to use the color of the brass in near dark lighting. The handy part is that you don't have to put anything on the case or clean it off. And, you can use it on every single case, not just a sample. See this scale:

Metal Temperatures

 

[BoydAllen]

Interesting...As I see it, the problem is that when using a torch, one cannot also be viewing neck color in the dark. On the other hand, if a procedure gives the result that you are looking for, I guess that it is by definition correct, for you.

 

[necchi]

Trying to explain "Color" on a a web forum is near impossible, esp with heat and metals.
Everybody's perception is different, not to mention age related color blindess. It's best seen first hand.
Experimentation, and the learning curve of ruining some brass is about what it takes to learn annealing.

 

[Forester]

I use the 650 tempilaq and paint a bit on just below the shoulder on my setup case. I use the Bench Source machine and the necks do not heat up enough to show any color even in a darkened room.

I anneal every firing now because it is just so easy with this machine.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Now this is the funny bit - I use a bench source annealing machine and on some of my cases I see what could be termed as the orange colour. The conclusion I have come to is - so long as the case is safe make the neck glow or not glow to whatever temp you want, as its all about the result, consistent neck tension, smaller groups, longer brass life - whatever is spinning ya wheels.

I'm not sure how you would tell a case is safe without a tempilaq indicator initially, at least to determine - timings, orange glows etc.

Back to the OP - liquid is easiest.

 

[itchyTF]

Thanks for the replies. Looks like liquid wins. My preference is the induction method but so far I haven't found a cost effective one configured they way I want. But I may be close although it will probably involve some DIY.

I've read a number of articles/comments about the temperature level and whether it is really annealing or stress relieving. I guess it doesn't matter what it is called as long as it works. But what is the "correct" temperature for the necks - 650, 700, 750?

 

[CPorter]

6BRinNZ, can you order through Amazon.com? They have Tempilaq in all the flavors...

 

[RonAKA]

Interesting...As I see it, the problem is that when using a torch, one cannot also be viewing neck color in the dark. On the other hand, if a procedure gives the result that you are looking for, I guess that it is by definition correct, for you.

I just move the torch away from the case, and look at the case and not the torch. Also, I use a light with a foot switch to get more light when I need it.

 

[Martin52]

CPorter - thanks for the suggestion about Amazon.com. Tempilaq is available there. Will have to check their international shipping policy for this.

Like 6BRinNZ, I have found it almost impossible to obtain in Australia. I currently have some 450 deg (for shoulder application) on order through an Aussie based importer/distributor using Brownells but it's taking a few weeks.

I have heard tempilaq has a short shelf life, not much over 12 months.

I agree. liquid is preferred over crayon.

 

[6BRinNZ]

I guess it doesn't matter what it is called as long as it works. But what is the "correct" temperature for the necks - 650, 700, 750?

I think thats the argument right there. I suspect annealing is a lot like barrel cleaning, load development etc etc, works for some and not others. I've taken the same approach to annealing as every thing else - number 1 is safety, number 2 is consistency (using a machine now) and finally I will tweak it all until I get the results I want.

Good luck.


CPorter - International shipping for liquids is usually the bug bear. I will have a look at amazon just in case. Thanks.

 

[RonAKA]

But what is the "correct" temperature for the necks - 650, 700, 750?

I know all will not agree, but I would suggest anything below 800F is probably a waste of time and fuel. The annealing range for brass starts at 800F and goes as high as 1400F. But the higher you go the softer it will get, and the more likely you will have oxidation of the surface. I would suggest 900F may be a good target, but consistency is more important than the exact temperature.

The problem I see with tempilaq is getting it in the right place. You have to apply it before you heat, and when you heat then you can't put the flame on it or you will get a false reading. If you put it on the outside and away from the shoulder then you will have to use a colder temperature and just assume the neck and shoulder will be hotter -- but by how much? Inside the neck may be ideal but that to me would be just way too much of a pain in the butt, to get the neck clean enough, put it one, and then get it out of there after.

Similar issues with the stick version, but if you are very fast you can heat first, and then do a quick swipe over the neck before it cools. That is the way welders use a stick. If done it this way, but it still makes a mess of the case that is hard to clean off. So, I just use the stick on scrap brass to get my visual temperature based on glow in the dark calibrated.

Annealing is hard to do well...

 

[BoydAllen]

The only time that I have been satisfied with the result of annealing cases, a machine was used. We experimented till we got the effect that we were looking for, much more uniform shoulder bump when FL sizing relatively new, and once fired, magnum brass. The Templaq was used more as a safety item, to be sure that the bottom of the case was not overheated, and as a visual reference, so that the setup that worked could be easily redone for future sessions. I have no idea what temperature that the necks were heated to, but we did not want them soft, and they were not, perhaps more uniform, but that was really not the problem that we were trying to solve.