annealing temp

[redneckturkeycaller]

What is the correct temp to anneal brass. Is it 650 or 750. I have read both. I plan to get temp crayons or a liquid temp indicator. Thanks for all of the past help. The members on this forum are far more knowledgeable than I am. Thanks for the help
Jeff

 

[jimbires]

here is a very good article on this . a quick answer is 650* takes minutes , 750* takes seconds . we can't heat brass for minutes without transferring to much heat to the case head and ruining the brass . Jim


http://www.kenlightmfg.com/cartridgecaseannealer.htm

 

[CPorter]

annealing temp c260

Physical Properties Metric English Comments
Density 8.53 g/cc 0.308 lb/in³

Mechanical Properties Metric English Comments
Hardness, Rockwell B 91 91
Hardness, HR30T 77 77
Tensile Strength, Ultimate 650 MPa 94300 psi
Elongation at Break 3.00 % 3.00 % In 50 mm
Modulus of Elasticity 110 GPa 16000 ksi
Poissons Ratio 0.375 0.375
Fatigue Strength 160 MPa 23200 psi
Machinability 30 % 30 % UNS C36000 (free-cutting brass) = 100%
Shear Modulus 40.0 GPa 5800 ksi
Shear Strength 330 MPa 47900 psi

Thermal Properties Metric English Comments
CTE, linear 19.9 µm/m-°C
@Temperature 20.0 - 300 °C 11.1 µin/in-°F
@Temperature 68.0 - 572 °F
Specific Heat Capacity 0.375 J/g-°C 0.0896 BTU/lb-°F
Thermal Conductivity 120 W/m-K
@Temperature 20.0 °C 833 BTU-in/hr-ft²-°F
@Temperature 68.0 °F
Melting Point 915 - 955 °C 1680 - 1750 °F
Solidus 915 °C 1680 °F
Liquidus 955 °C 1750 °F

Processing Properties Metric English Comments
Annealing Temperature 425 - 750 °C 797 - 1380 °F
Hot-Working Temperature 725 - 850 °C 1340 - 1560 °F

Component Elements Properties Metric English Comments
Copper, Cu 68.5 - 71.5 % 68.5 - 71.5 %
Iron, Fe <= 0.050 % <= 0.050 %
Lead, Pb <= 0.070 % <= 0.070 %
Other <= 0.15 % <= 0.15 %
Zinc, Zn 28.5 - 31.5 % 28.5 - 31.5 %

Descriptive Properties
Hall Coefficient 36 pV · m/A · T
Velocity of Sound 3660 m/s at 20°C

 

[Killshot]

Use the liquid Tempilaq. I use the 650 degree and trust it more
than color or the amount of burnishing one sees.

Read the instructions on Bench-Source's website for very
good directions on annealing.

 

[Jim See]

I just annealed 300 6br with 6 firings. A national level f-class shooter told me I was getting them too hot. Thats because I spin them in a drill with an alluminum holder over a mapp gas flame until the entire neck glows light orange with the lights off, then droped in water.


HE then shot those loads at the Duaine Corbin range 600 yard BR match in July and set a new range record with a 1.539" group. (with my gun)

Sunday i shot a 200, 12X at the Lodi 600 yard F-open, with the same 1st load after annealing.

I guess I over annealed them because that brass never shot so good.

 

[Killshot]

I just annealed 300 6br with 6 firings. A national level f-class shooter told me I was getting them too hot. Thats because I spin them in a drill with an alluminum holder over a mapp gas flame until the entire neck glows light orange with the lights off, then droped in water.


HE then shot those loads at the Duaine Corbin range 600 yard BR match in July and set a new range record with a 1.539" group. (with my gun)

Sunday i shot a 200, 12X at the Lodi 600 yard F-open, with the same 1st load after annealing.

I guess I over annealed them because that brass never shot so good.

Glowing?
Way too hot...

 

[BoydAllen]

Jim.
Mapp gas is probably too hot. Everyone that I know is using propane, and where did you come up with your method? You might want to read this....carefully....about three times. Seriously, with anything that has a lot of details, I always have to read through it more than once to make sure that I got it all, and if it is really important, I take notes.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/annealing/
Boyd

 

[bozo699]

annealing temp c260

Physical Properties Metric English Comments
Density 8.53 g/cc 0.308 lb/in³

Mechanical Properties Metric English Comments
Hardness, Rockwell B 91 91
Hardness, HR30T 77 77
Tensile Strength, Ultimate 650 MPa 94300 psi
Elongation at Break 3.00 % 3.00 % In 50 mm
Modulus of Elasticity 110 GPa 16000 ksi
Poissons Ratio 0.375 0.375
Fatigue Strength 160 MPa 23200 psi
Machinability 30 % 30 % UNS C36000 (free-cutting brass) = 100%
Shear Modulus 40.0 GPa 5800 ksi
Shear Strength 330 MPa 47900 psi

Thermal Properties Metric English Comments
CTE, linear 19.9 µm/m-°C
@Temperature 20.0 - 300 °C 11.1 µin/in-°F
@Temperature 68.0 - 572 °F
Specific Heat Capacity 0.375 J/g-°C 0.0896 BTU/lb-°F
Thermal Conductivity 120 W/m-K
@Temperature 20.0 °C 833 BTU-in/hr-ft²-°F
@Temperature 68.0 °F
Melting Point 915 - 955 °C 1680 - 1750 °F
Solidus 915 °C 1680 °F
Liquidus 955 °C 1750 °F

Processing Properties Metric English Comments
Annealing Temperature 425 - 750 °C 797 - 1380 °F
Hot-Working Temperature 725 - 850 °C 1340 - 1560 °F

Component Elements Properties Metric English Comments
Copper, Cu 68.5 - 71.5 % 68.5 - 71.5 %
Iron, Fe <= 0.050 % <= 0.050 %
Lead, Pb <= 0.070 % <= 0.070 %
Other <= 0.15 % <= 0.15 %
Zinc, Zn 28.5 - 31.5 % 28.5 - 31.5 %

Descriptive Properties
Hall Coefficient 36 pV · m/A · T
Velocity of Sound 3660 m/s at 20°C

Well there you go, wrote in plain English sos us plain folk can understand it was clear as mud for me, thanks for the detailed description
Wayne.

 

[Jim See]

why don't you boys explain to me, what did I do to my brass by over heating it, in your opinion. If they are ruined what did I ruin? and how?

what way to hot is?

what way too hot will do to the brass, when I shoot 107 smks with 31 gr of varget, and show no ejector marks?

what way too hot does to the necks to "ruin them" because my case heads never reach near 150 degrees in the process I use.

I know how knuckle heads ruin brass annealing, I have one for a customer, he never quenched them in water. heated up and dropped them in a bucket to air cool. Guess what! all that heat build up in the bucket gave the heat plenty of time to transfer to the case head, heavy ejector marks with minimum loads.

 

[BoydAllen]

Jim,
It seems that I have been going through a period of reading posts too quickly before posting replies. Sorry about that. I will say that when you wrote of a glow (even in a darkened room) my alarms went off, because for some situations, this produces necks, that while uniform, lack the requisite neck tension that some loads seem to require. Actually, because a hotter source takes less time to reach a given neck temperature, there is less time for the heat to migrate down the case to where you don't want it. The only problem that I can see would be in applications where some residual neck tension is desired. It would make timing more critical. Congratulations on your success, and thanks for your restrained reply.
Boyd

 

[Jim See]

Boyd, thanks, It typically takes to the count of six for the timing in the flame,

When the glow appears they are dumped in the water. I'm not looking for lava red but an orange glow then they are immediatly dropped in the water. The nice part about Mapp gas is it is quicker, and like you said the heat dosen't have near as much time to migrate down the body.

This method may not be for everyone, a bit of hand/eye cordnation and timing is needed, but My results have been great and the thing I worry about least is the actual "tempature" needed as I have no way to accurately measure that anyway, which would be 9 out of 10 do it yourselfers situation.

I read a ton of post on the proper temp. but how in the hell are these guys measuring the proper temp? Templaq? on the outside of the case? wouldn't the inside be a better place to put it rather than where the flame is hitting it?

 

[wapiti25]

I have been reforming brass for 25 yrs and annealing by the just "red" method and tiping into water. I had to in the early 80's make my 7mm BR cases out of 308 and they shot great. I did shoot 39's and 40's out of an XP-100 in pistol sillouette with the plastic stock. I did have to inside ream the cases and I bored the necks. I have used that method even thou some here thinked I ruined my brass also 25-06, 6.5-06, 270, 7mm-08 all formed out of mil brass and no split neckes. I just annealed and neckturned the brass for my 80's national match rifle and it shot better by 1/4 MOA at 600 than it used to. Too many people want to buy their way to success, I can't afford that.

 

[wapiti25]

My first national match rifle was a 6.5-06. With a Douglas barrel that I fit, got me a silver medal at the state match even though people told me 6.5 bores would not work. That was before I started neck turning.

 

[BoydAllen]

Jim,
In the instances where I have annealed, recently, we were not so much trying to change the neck, but rather make the shoulder bump much more uniform on 7WSM and .338 Lapua cases. For those setups were using a machine that has two torches, and initially had three parallel stripes of 300, 400, and 500 degree Templaq, painted from the shoulder to just above the head. We were trying to make sure that we were not having heat go too far down the case, hence the lower temp. stripes. After an initial try that melted the 500 down to about a quarter inch below the shoulder, we found that the shoulders were not quite there yet, so the next time we put another second on it (still checking with Templaq) and that did the trick. With the two torches I think that it was 6-7 seconds, with the inner cone of the flames about a half of an inch from the center of the neck. The final result was much more uniform bump, and we still had some neck tension, and accuracy was not changed. I have no idea what temperature the necks got up to. As long as the result are good, and the heads stay cool enough, I don't care.
boyd

 

[jimbires]

I'm really new to annealing , I bought a machine maybe 8 months ago . I use 750* liquid tempilaq . I paint the inside of the case neck . just as the tempilaq melts my machine advances to the next case . I tried to paint the outside of the neck but as soon as the flame hits it, it melts . recently I started to tumble my brass before I anneal . by doing this I can see the brass slightly change color or a heat line work it's way down the case shoulder . just as this line gets to the bottom of the shoulder my tempilaq melts and my machine advances . I don't know how to better describe this . by annealing I have noticed the bullets seem to always seat with the same effort and I have also noticed the shoulder bump is very consistent . Jim

 

[Jim See]

All, doing a little test today, Ryan and I are discussing annealing temp as we run 240 neck turned saum cases thru the Ken light machine.

I shot some 308 loads last night that went into sub 1/2moa on 6 times fired lapua brass. Today I used the mapp gas/drill and purposly over annealed the necks to a bright red glow then dumped in the water (9-10 seconds in the flame)
bodys and heads not overheated.

I loaded the same charge and will shoot tonight looking for a change, then I will run them thru a size die tommorow to see if we have any ill-effects of the "over" annealing.

 

[BoydAllen]

Jim,
I find your impending production of real data alarming and not at all in the tradition of many forum discussions.

Seriously, thanks for the test. I will be looking forward to reading your results. With my PPC, I have found powders that need neck tension, and those that don't. It would be interesting to have some chronograph numbers from both batches, since some believe that tune in velocity specific.
Boyd

 

[spclark]

Recently I started to tumble my brass before I anneal . by doing this I can see the brass slightly change color or a heat line work it's way down the case shoulder . just as this line gets to the bottom of the shoulder my tempilaq melts and my machine advances . I don't know how to better describe this. by annealing I have noticed the bullets seem to always seat with the same effort and I have also noticed the shoulder bump is very consistent.

Thanks for your post Jim! That last comment reflects my inspiration to start annealing case necks & sometimes shoulders. I use your visual technique as a guide, aiming for an appearance something like that seen on new Lapua brass. I don't have a machine per se; my 1/2" Milwaukee drill, throttled back to about 60-80 rpm & with a 1/4" square drive deep socket appropriate for the cases I'm running works just fine. Single hardware store propane torch set with the inner blue flame at about 5/8" - 3/4".

Seems like the optimum interval (for me, at least) is three to four firings on turned neck 6mm cases (I shoot three different ones) two or three on turned neck 308 cases for Palma.

 

[spclark]

Sunday i shot a 200, 12X at the Lodi 600 yard F-open, with the same 1st load after annealing. I guess I over annealed them because that brass never shot so good.

Over-annealing might not be harmful other than to shorten your brass life some, or increase the tendency for the brass to stretch. I doubt your 200-12X couldn't have been shot with more conservatively annealed brass, but then I don't shoot your rifle.

Cases don't fail catastrophically at the neck / shoulder when fired, though they do sometimes split. I'd rather err on the side of "maybe not enough rather than too much" when it comes to annealing; having to deal with a case head separation (maybe resulting from too much heating of a case wall when over-annealing a neck / shoulder?) during a string significantly adds to my pulse before I get back on the sights....

Copper melts at 1984° F, while Zinc only needs 787°F. Assuming 750 - 800° F for proper annealing, overheating brass will tend to oxidize the zinc component the longer the duration at that level of temperature.

(I was at Lodi last weekend too, shot both days. I'm a sling shooter though, at least as long as my eyesight lets me use irons sights....)

 

[gambleone]

Boyd, That was a good article on annealing. Best I read so far.
Thanks