Annealing question

[Scalloper]

I understand the advantages of annealing. But what improvements in group size have some of you seen with the same loads? So for instance on brass with 5-10 firings with the same loads did you see consistent improvements in your groups vs unannealed? Or was it more lack of flyers after annealing?

 

[PopCharlie]

I use an AMP annealer. For me, since annealing after each firing, I get much more consistent sizing. I full length size with a bushing then neck size with a mandrel. The biggest gain for me was brass life. I would get 6-8 firings before the brass was work hardened to the point where sizing and neck tension were all over the place. I'd toss the brass then. Now I'm getting 15+ firings with no issues.

PopCharlie

 

[SKWERLZ]

More consistent sizing, neck tension and brass life.

 

[RegionRat]

Another it depends question.

If your tune is balanced with annealing, and then you skip it.....
Or, if your tune is based on virgin brass, or if it can be adjusted as you go...

By the time you have flyers, we would call that out of tune.
If you are adjusting the load for the day to stay in tune, we are talking bench rest.
If you are preloading a batch for later, we are in a different context.
Both of these contexts view the role of annealing differently, and that context will determine how bad things look when they go out of tune because you didn't anneal.

In some contexts, rigs have a tune that is more sensitive to neck tension. You would get away with some drift in the cold work of the necks and then find yourself out of tune before long if you didn't anneal. Here the penalty can be night and day, like a factor of 2X between a group or being out of tune.

In other contexts, some tunes are more forgiving to the neck tension and you can compensate with the charge and neck tension as the necks harden, or just let it go till it stops working and then anneal. Here you may only see a factor of 0.5X where a 1 MOA group goes to a 1.5.

The perspective is sometimes driven by our idea of what is a good group. If we are happy with a rig that keeps them all into 1 MOA, we are more likely to say annealing can be postponed. If we are talking about a rig that needs to stay well under 0.5 MOA, then we are less likely to get away with letting things drift out of tune.

When I was very young, I ran a parallel study using a silhouette rig. One batch was not annealed, another was annealed every time. I found what it took to make both stay well inside 0.75 MOA for 50 shots at a time, it took more focus and tracking to keep the non-annealed batch in tune because they drifted with cycles. I just found it easier to anneal every cycle.

Annealing or not annealing is just another one of several parameters that affects your tune. Depending on the context, it can have a great effect. YMMV

 

[Straightshooter1]

In the two guns that I reload for, which don't have custom chambers, I work to keep my group sizes under .5 MOA; and .250 MOA is not something my rigs are capable of consistently. So, for me, I do find that annealing does make a difference in consistency on paper as opposed to not annealing at all.

Annealing counter acts the work hardening process that brass goes through, which effects the amount of spring back and grip on the bullet. When there's a lot of work being done on the brass due to the amount of expansion when fired and then the sizing down before the expander ball or mandrel expands it again to the neck tension one is after, work hardening is sure to happen rather quickly. If one has a custom chamber and custom sizing dies where the amount of work being done on the brass is very little, then annealing doesn't pose much of a benefit, if any.

If one's shooting venue is benchrest and looking for at really consistent small groups, annealing can be a huge benefit . . . if one is really trying to compete. But if one is hunting and 1 MOA is good enough, it's not likely annealing is worth the time and expense. IMHO, based on my personal experience with annealing.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Some of the things we do during the reloading process are done so that something bad never happens in the first place. For me, annealing is one of those things. I have always annealed. I have never "not" annealed, just to find out what bad things might happen. So I can't tell you exactly what to expect other than that I personally don't want to find out. So I anneal every firing and don't really find it to be a big deal.

 

[Big_Daddy]

10 shot groups at 200 yards.
All factors were the same except for annealing.

 

[DiRTY DOG]

Consistency. Each case should be as close to clones of each other as possible. You don't have consistency unless you do the same thing to each case every single time:

• Anneal every time.
• Size the same way every time.
• Trim/chamfer the same every time.
• Seat the same way every time.

INconsistency: Neck sizing most of the time but then FL sizing every 5th firing- your case demensions change from shot to shot. Or only trimming sometimes. Or only annealing every 3rd firing. Constantly (intentionally) changing the variables is not good.

 

[JFrank]

10 shot groups at 200 yards.
All factors were the same except for annealing.

Might have a tad of 1:00-2:00 wind involved as well ?

 

[Scalloper]

I actually have the primer pockets ware out long before split necks. I have not had very many split necks at all over the years.
That being said I do feel a more consistent pressure when using the mandril to set neck tension.

 

[JEFFPPC]

At least Big Daddy answered the question.

 

[Big_Daddy]

Might have a tad of 1:00-2:00 wind involved as well ?

Nope....These 2 groups were shot within 15 minutes of each other with no wind.

 

[JFrank]

Nope....These 2 groups were shot within 15 minutes of each other with no wind.

With all due respect, your target suggests a right hand wind.

 

[Big_Daddy]

With all due respect, your target suggests a right hand wind.

If you can determine that from those 2 targets, you are a lot smarter than I am....LOL

 

[Dimner]

I understand the advantages of annealing. But what improvements in group size have some of you seen with the same loads? So for instance on brass with 5-10 firings with the same loads did you see consistent improvements in your groups vs unannealed? Or was it more lack of flyers after annealing?

I have not read the other replies.. but with my experience, consistent annealing is the key. If you develop a load within 3 firings of your brass. That load is not going to be as well tuned after 10 firings.

In later firings, you will get fliers and velocity swings as neck tension will be all over the place. But it's subjective based on what kind of accuracy you are looking to achieve. If you are going for 1 moa at 100 yards, you might never notice. If you are trying to get to threes and below, annealing is going to be a big part of your setup.

Personally, consistent annealing stepped up my reloading to the next level along with a quality digital scale. And consistent is the key word. If your anneal technique is not consistent you will have the same problems, just to a lesser degree.

 

[Dimner]

With all due respect, your target suggests a right hand wind.

I'd like to know how you read the targets with that conclusion. I'm pretty bad at reading targets.

 

[dcali]

I'd like to know how you read the targets with that conclusion. I'm pretty bad at reading targets.

I'm not going to make pronouncements about what is or isn't happening there, and there is always a danger in jumping to conclusions based on two groups.

That said, if you look at those two targets, the vertical is nearly identical. The group size is roughly the same. There is a slight top left to bottom right angle to the larger group, which is typical of what you would see in the wind at short range with a right hand twist - both the angle and the size change.

In other words, that's consistent with what you'd expect to see if the wind picked up in between groups and nothing was done to compensate for it.

 

[dcali]

I'm going to challenge the premise of your question. I don't think it's a given that annealing will automatically help.

I'm in the camp of "don't do [inset reloading task] unless you have a good, specific reason to do it". I don't really enjoy reloading and want to do as little of it as possible. As a result, I skip a lot of steps people say you "have to do". (Sometimes I find out the hard way why I can't skip a certain step). I ask "are these loads good enough to do what I need them to do? If not, what is the easiest thing I can do to make them good enough?". Annealing, for me, has never been the answer to that question.

The only concrete, take it to the bank reason to anneal is that it will help prevent split necks, espeically if you're aggressively forming wildcats. I think you're making a big leap by assuming groups will improve when you anneal. At best, that's going to be situationally dependent. It *may* have desirable effects for *some* types of shooting depending on how you do it. The majority of shooters will never see the difference from behind the gun.

 

[TTE]

I understand the advantages of annealing. But what improvements in group size have some of you seen with the same loads? So for instance on brass with 5-10 firings with the same loads did you see consistent improvements in your groups vs unannealed? Or was it more lack of flyers after annealing?

Accuracy is about the rifle and the items attached to it ... action, barrel, scope and mounts etc.

It is extremely difficult (impossible) to shoot .3 groups consistently, if your rifle is only capable of shooting .8 groups.

Ammunition is about consistency.
If you think your cases are all work hardening to the same level/hardness, that would be consistency in your cases. I doubt that would/could happen .... but maybe ?

Annealing adds to the consistency of your brass.

I'm new to all this so it more difficult for me to prove anything 100%
However that is my $0.75 worth of advise ( inflation has bumped up the $0.02 worth )

 

[Murray Brook]

Anyone know if the bench rest top shooters anneal. In my limited testing I found that if you want to anneal then be prepared to do it after every firing as well as working up your load doing this. Otherwise I found no accuracy gain although there may be a gain in less split necks. JMO