Annealing question

[R.Morehouse]

Long range shooters anneal more than short. I have never seen a LR BR shooter throw a powder charge either......To completely different games.

 

[BenPerfected]

Sure, you don't even have to take my word for it, go to any sanctioned BR match on the planet, let me know how many guys that load between relays( typically 15-20 cases for the whole aggeragate if not the match) are seen annealing those cases. I can pretty much tell you, that would be precisely zero.

What % of CF shooters reload at a shoot? Of those that do, is it to change the load to find a better tune or to just reuse your brass?
Ben

 

[noload]

I have many Old lots of 6br brass, I find it too hard to keep it segregated. After its all annealed I use this stuff for my practice cases, I find even though some brass has been trimmed more than others,( it will weigh less) it will still group rather well, I'm talking about well used brass, countless firings, 20 times at least. Many of these cases have been blown out to Dasher also. I'm sure the water volume is is off, I checked 5 cases for volume after they shot a 1.16" group at 600yds. (F Class style) (I took Sort of a reverse engineering approach) I thought checking these proven good shooting mungrel cases would show me something. Such as, How Good does brass have to be to shoot good groups? H20 volume was of the 5 cases, the Hi was 41.90 gn, Low was 41.64 the rest were 41.88,41.88, 41.76. of H20. So I can assume, that water volume within 3 tenths can shoot rather well. This brass was shot 5x after it's last anneal. I'm not a fan of fresh annealed cases, after shooting 20,000 + BR rounds, I have not found annealed brass to be more accurate, actually just the opposite, it may be that my necks like to be harder for some reason ? ( although It may help the shooter who has brass with neck problems ). I do not like to shoot annealed brass, but I do anneal to extend the life of the brass only. I have only had 2 split necks in BR brass after 20K shots. Primer pockets.. are why I have to throw it out.

 

[Tim s]

Tim s
Well, I anneal every time and I definitely don't consider it a waste of time.
Your example doesn't apply to everyone or even all disciplines.

Knock yourself out. I'd also make damn sure you actually count powder kernels in the reloads, can't be too careful.

 

[Tim s]

Assume your talking about the "300 yards and less" crowd. If that's the case, What about the long range BR shooters?
CW

The point is/was rather than some arbitrary and useless metric, consider the following.
Now this is case/ chamber specific but essentially depending on what methodology you resize, you should be able to determine the difference on the press handle between a new, dead soft case and one with some springback. When they start to work harden, anneal them back and if you are competing, after several cycles, toss'em.

 

[Tim s]

What % of CF shooters reload at a shoot? Of those that do, is it to change the load to find a better tune or to just reuse your brass?
Ben

At the matches I've been to I'd guess probably 95% at a minimum. The substantial number that load N133, you usually need to make adjustments. Now with a lot using LT 32 It is probably got less to do with that, however if you are shooting a match, at a minimum that's 4 aggs over two days where each one is 5 5 shot groups plus sighters......that is a hell of a lot of pre loading. What do you gain?

 

[Tim s]

I have many Old lots of 6br brass, I find it too hard to keep it segregated. After its all annealed I use this stuff for my practice cases, I find even though some brass has been trimmed more than others,( it will weigh less) it will still group rather well, I'm talking about well used brass, countless firings, 20 times at least. Many of these cases have been blown out to Dasher also. I'm sure the water volume is is off, I checked 5 cases for volume after they shot a 1.16" group at 600yds. (F Class style) (I took Sort of a reverse engineering approach) I thought checking these proven good shooting mungrel cases would show me something. Such as, How Good does brass have to be to shoot good groups? H20 volume was of the 5 cases, the Hi was 41.90 gn, Low was 41.64 the rest were 41.88,41.88, 41.76. of H20. So I can assume, that water volume within 3 tenths can shoot rather well. This brass was shot 5x after it's last anneal. I'm not a fan of fresh annealed cases, after shooting 20,000 + BR rounds, I have not found annealed brass to be more accurate, actually just the opposite, it may be that my necks like to be harder for some reason ? ( although It may help the shooter who has brass with neck problems ). I do not like to shoot annealed brass, but I do anneal to extend the life of the brass only. I have only had 2 split necks in BR brass after 20K shots. Primer pockets.. are why I have to throw it out.

Well there is possibly another reason, and a big one. Now BR brass has less tendancy than PPC brass but if you section a couple of those old cases you may well find they start to get quite thin in the base and believe me, it is zero fun if you have one seperate in the chamber and you have to fish out part of a case without scoring your chamber........your gun.

 

[Nomad47]

Knock yourself out. I'd also make damn sure you actually count powder kernels in the reloads, can't be too careful.

I have watched Walt Berger load between relays. He first dispensed with a RCBS powder dispenser, then double checked the load on a scale. I guess you're saying he is "too careful".

I hate it when someone makes an arbitrary statement (like it is a fact) like "it is a complete waste of time to anneal every time". Looks like my ignore list just got an addition.

 

[msinc]

Based on what I read in the original very first post...it sounded like the OP believes, is hopeful, or maybe has been told that by annealing brass cases they are somehow relieved of any and all changes due to being reloaded and shot. He asked {not the exact quote}, "say they were reloaded 3 or 11 times are they all set back to the same beginning point again???"
Beginning point as in new???? No, and I can vouch for all of us when I say, we all really wish this was so!!!! I believe based on my experience with doing it since 1991 that annealing cases can help them to last a little longer. I believe, again based on personal experience, that annealing can definitely give you more favorable SD/ES on a chronograph...but, that doesn't necessarily equate to nor does it guarantee more or better accuracy.
Back to the original question, brass should really be sorted, among other reasons, by the number of firings or times loaded because in most cartridges there is some forward flow of brass. It is this forward flow that causes us to have to trim our cases. Not all cases have as much brass moving as much as others...those are the ones that can sometimes last longer. Accountants call it the "Jello principle"...what ever you take from "here" always pops up "somewhere else".
That brass we trim off the case mouth after being resized came from the area of the case web, just in front of the case head and each time the case gets thinner and thinner in this important area. Eventually if you thin it down enough {keep loading and shooting the same cases} it will give way. This can be anything from a harmless crack that lets out a little smoke to disaster. In my own experience I was lucky...I received a batch of 280 Remington cases from a guy that didn't know the history on them. At that point they should have been tossed. I resized and loaded them and the second round blew a hole through the web of the case. It didn't stop there...the hot gas cut like a torch a small hole right into the side of the chamber and caused the rifle to have to be set back and rechambered.
The moral of the story...never guess how many times a case has been loaded even if you have your LUCKIEST pair of underwear on!!!!!!!

 

[Tim s]

I have watched Walt Berger load between relays. He first dispensed with a RCBS powder dispenser, then double checked the load on a scale. I guess you're saying he is "too careful".

I hate it when someone makes an arbitrary statement (like it is a fact) like "it is a complete waste of time to anneal every time". Looks like my ignore list just got an addition.

Good point, Walt has been one of the best. One thing, apparantly, he did not do.......anneal his cases.

 

[Mulligan]

Ok, if you do not anneal how do you keep neck tension and headspace in check? Continual change of bushings and shims on the FL sizing die?
I know some very successful shooters turn the necks thin, resulting in no need to anneal. If you do not anneal, how many firings do you get before the brass is not usable?
CW

 

[msinc]

Ok, if you do not anneal how do you keep neck tension and headspace in check? Continual change of bushings and shims on the FL sizing die?
I know some very successful shooters turn the necks thin, resulting in no need to anneal. If you do not anneal, how many firings do you get before the brass is not usable?
CW

Head space is a matter of adjusting the size die and having the proper tools to measure what you are doing...I have not found annealing to make it any easier or relieve me of diligence in this regard.
It is a fallacy to believe that thin necks can alleviate the need to anneal. While it can be said that no one has to anneal, it should be done to keep the cases consistent and help them last longer. Thin necks still need to be annealed to keep them from getting hard and splitting. Actually, really thin necks split faster and easier.
How many firings you get depends a lot on how old the brass was when you started. I had some Lake City 57 and 58 years ago and the expander ball chirped when I tried to resize it the first time.

 

[RonAKA]

I would bring them all up to the same temperature of 880 F for 5 seconds. The more work hardened the brass the more it will anneal. The less work hardened, the less it will anneal. The brass hardness will even out, especially after you anneal them for the second time around.

 

[noload]

Well there is possibly another reason, and a big one. Now BR brass has less tendancy than PPC brass but if you section a couple of those old cases you may well find they start to get quite thin in the base and believe me, it is zero fun if you have one seperate in the chamber and you have to fish out part of a case without scoring your chamber........your gun.

I do keep a close eye on the web area, I have noticed, on brass ready to separate, an obvious stretch mark will appear before separation occurs. I also saw the cases lengthwise randomly to inspect the thickness.