Annealing question ?

[savagedasher]

Could you describe the annealing process that was used to greatly over anneal the cases? I want to learn what it takes to make them dead soft so I don't do it.

I guess I miss read what you said But when someone says ( Quote) I want to learn what takes to make them dead soft so I don't do it . Is a question My Bad Larry

 

[OldManTA]

I've read the preceding discussion and I can't really believe some of the comments. The brass has, apparently, been exposed to an unknown amount of heat and resulted in an undetermined metallurgical state. Now the typical center fire cartridge generates somewhere between 40,000 and 60,000 pounds per square inch of chamber pressure which the cartridge case must contain while the bullet is going down the barrel. If that pressure is not contained there can be a range of failures some of which could prove fatal to the person who pulled the trigger. So, the question arises, do you want to risk bodily injury, maiming, loss of an eye or other body part, the ability to make a living or perhaps see your wife and/or children??? With that degree of uncertainty my advice to any of the above commenters is those cases belong in the scrap bin and need to be crushed so nobody else can mistakenly use them.
Have a wonderful Independence Day.
Tom Alves

 

[savagedasher]

I've read the preceding discussion and I can't really believe some of the comments. The brass has, apparently, been exposed to an unknown amount of heat and resulted in an undetermined metallurgical state. Now the typical center fire cartridge generates somewhere between 40,000 and 60,000 pounds per square inch of chamber pressure which the cartridge case must contain while the bullet is going down the barrel. If that pressure is not contained there can be a range of failures some of which could prove fatal to the person who pulled the trigger. So, the question arises, do you want to risk bodily injury, maiming, loss of an eye or other body part, the ability to make a living or perhaps see your wife and/or children??? With that degree of uncertainty my advice to any of the above commenters is those cases belong in the scrap bin and need to be crushed so nobody else can mistakenly use them.
Have a wonderful Independence Day.
Tom Alves

+ 1 Thanks Tom Larry

 

[Webster]

I understand your comment to trash the cases but the only reason he thought the cases were severley annealed was that the bullets seated easily. He never followed up by giving info like how far did the heat tint go down the case. No comment on were the necks determined to be too soft by sqeezing them.

 

[Drop Port]

What cartridge is it? it's a lot easier to trash a short case than a long one due to heat transfer.

 

[Webster]

Doesn't anyone catch on. He never really determined the cases were over annealed. He just said the bullets seated easy. Seat a bullet in an unloaded neck sized case and push it agaist the edge of the workbench. If it takes some force to move the bullet they are not over annealed. I have a RCBS Model RC IV press. I seat bullets with 0.0017" neck tension with almost zero force. The necks were never annealed.

 

[OldManTA]

The pertinent details are that an unknown person of unknown skill has attempted to anneal cartridges. The original request says the requestor is talking about a friend. So there is no level of understanding about the actual condition of the cases nor the ability to adequately ascertain that. THE RISKS ARE TOO HIGH! I for one am not ready to accept responsibility of suggesting those cases are in any way safe to use thus my advice. Now if somebody else is comfortable in recommending otherwise then I suggest they sign their next message with their real name, address and phone number.

Tom Alves
Henderson, KY
270-827-0507

 

[amlevin]

People need to quit getting hung up on metallurgy. You simply heat the neck shoulder area for 5-10 seconds at somewhere between 750-1200F and you’re finished.

Very true but it goes totally against the psyche of so many on this forum. Many here prefer to pick the fly poop out of ground pepper so to speak. Others prefer simple and effective. it's amazing how many of the latter arrive at the same results as the former.

 

[Juma]

What is the cost of brass compared to safety and your face. Non question. Don't do something unless you understand the process and can do it competently.

 

[amlevin]

What is the cost of brass compared to safety and your face. Non question. Don't do something unless you understand the process and can do it competently.

The accidents I've seen both happen and the results thereof have occurred not because of over-annealing but by overloads due to improper powder selection or just plain stupidity.

 

[spclark]

Good post Webster, thanks. Sounds like you know something more than the rest of us about metals.

From my (limited to case annealing) experience I'm guessing the potential for oxidizing zinc exists when cases are over-heated maybe more than "over-annealing"? I'm not talking about heating the case body or head by heat transfer, rather the burning of some portion of the zinc in the brass.

A few years ago a forum member here ran some tests by seriously over-heating brass necks & shoulders he then went on to use. Reported back there was no problem, shots were still on call & no case failures were evident.

Your second paragraph pretty much sums up the practice I've arrived at. Can brass be rendered unsafe by overheating? Yes, but you really have to work at it to go that far.

My advice is: if you can't read & understand how the descriptions of case neck annealing are to be put into practice with your own personal brass preparation routine, either find someone you know who can show you how they do theirs then watch while you get started doing your own, or don't do it at all.

 

[Dave T]

For goodness sakes, THROW THEM AWAY!
Dave T

 

[deadwooddick]

Can brass be rendered unsafe by overheating? Yes, but you really have to work at it to go that far.

I'll admit to "overheating" some 6BR cases. Also agree there's no "safety issue."

But dang, the scoring that results from sizing die sure makes 'em look odd. Surgically clean the die body and within 4 cases, the scoring returns. :-[

 

[Webster]

I wouldn't think you could get a white Zn oxide on the surface at annealing temperatures. There has to be a mix of Cu & Zn oxide forming during the anealing. Factory anealed brass does not have any hint of white. I am not going to look it up now but I put an article on the website about how the color of the oxide layer changes in color with thickness not composition. Sounds like nobody knows how to determine if a case is over annealed so they toss them.

As a side issue yesterday I did something weird. I bought ten 6mm. brass bore brushes from Bruno's. They were so stiff I had to use a lot of force to get them through the bore. Since these were the only new brushes I had and did not want to throw them away. I decided to anneal the brush wires with a propane torch and see what happens. I chucked a brush in an electric drill and moved the brush through the flame from one end to the other. About ten seconds total. The wires still felt stiff. Very light but good contact in the rifle bore. Very little force to move the brush. I want to try 5 seconds and see how it feels in the bore while cleaning. Now we are into annealing brushes. I wonder how many weird anal comments I will get?

 

[amamnn]

Ok since no one else tumbled to it I will have to point out that "a friend" over-annealed the cases (by an unstated process and determination of the result)---BUT---"I" will throw them away------How many episodes of the Bob Newhart Show do you have to watch to see what's going on here? eh? eh? EH?

 

[Nomad47]

Can brass be rendered unsafe by overheating? Yes, but you really have to work at it to go that far.

I'll admit to "overheating" some 6BR cases. Also agree there's no "safety issue."

But dang, the scoring that results from sizing die sure makes 'em look odd. Surgically clean the die body and within 4 cases, the scoring returns. :-[

Are you talking about "striping" on the necks? I don't know how else to describe it. Maybe I could take a photo and post.

 

[amlevin]

But dang, the scoring that results from sizing die sure makes 'em look odd. Surgically clean the die body and within 4 cases, the scoring returns. :-[

Had the same problem with a forster bushing. There was a rough edge on the entrance of the bushing that would grab and hold a near-microscopic bit of brass with each sizing. After 4-5 cases being sized numerous scratches would form on the case neck and get worse from there.

I took some 3,000 grit sandpaper (3-M and it's more like a 1/8" thick piece of sponge than "paper") to the bushing and polished the dickens out of the edge. I also pay close attention to de-burring the case neck BEFORE sizing now. Just a quick twist of my "Rocket Tool" to make sure there's nothing on the case neck edge to get caught in the bushing. Same would apply with non-bushing dies as well.

 

[spclark]

Are you talking about "striping" on the necks? I don't know how else to describe it.

As careful as I try to be with my reloading tools and routines for processing brass I invariably see something like that - striping - on the inside of my case necks after the last pass over an expander mandrel.

I've tried polishing the darn things to a mirror finish sometimes & even with that it still shows up.

I'm at a point though where I'm learning to overlook it as it neither seems to affect accuracy on paper nor case life to any degree.

 

[Nomad47]

What I see is on the outside of the neck. Really can't feel it. But it sort of looks like the corrugations on cardboard - just very much smaller. Doesn't seem to affect performance in any way.

 

[243winxb]

Zinc gone, brass scrap. http://heattreatment.linde.com/International/Web/LG/HT/like35lght.nsf/repositorybyalias/wp_semifnshd_22/$file/22.pdf