Annealing Question (new member)

[Hoyt56971]

Good evening,
i have been slowly getting into reloading over last couple of years but with materials scarce or pricey, I decided to work on a few projects based on some things I saw on the web. One of the projects was an annealing machine based off a couple I saw on YouTube and the web. At the slowest setting, a case will be in the torch flame for a maximum of 12 seconds. The necks never change color or get red, so I decided to pick up an infrared thermometer. I know I don’t want them red yet guys showing these machines run the cases for maybe 5 to 6 seconds. Running 30-06 brass through it for 11 seconds, drops into collection pan, and then hit with infrared, but neck case does not get over 215 degrees Fahrenheit. Using single propane torch.

Based on readings, to soften for neck sizing, I should be in the 450 range. Has anyone built one of these? If so, have you ever checked to see how hot the case neck get? I haven’t seen anyone on web verify case temperature after running through the machine.

see the pictures, it also looks as if the heat is getting too far down the case.

just looking for some thoughts or feedback from someone who built one of these machines. I plan on getting some temp crayons from welding supply to check the thermometer.
thanks in advance

 

[Webster]

Good evening,
i have been slowly getting into reloading over last couple of years but with materials scarce or pricey, I decided to work on a few projects based on some things I saw on the web. One of the projects was an annealing machine based off a couple I saw on YouTube and the web. At the slowest setting, a case will be in the torch flame for a maximum of 12 seconds. The necks never change color or get red, so I decided to pick up an infrared thermometer. I know I don’t want them red yet guys showing these machines run the cases for maybe 5 to 6 seconds. Running 30-06 brass through it for 11 seconds, drops into collection pan, and then hit with infrared, but neck case does not get over 215 degrees Fahrenheit. Using single propane torch.

Based on readings, to soften for neck sizing, I should be in the 450 range. Has anyone built one of these? If so, have you ever checked to see how hot the case neck get? I haven’t seen anyone on web verify case temperature after running through the machine.

see the pictures, it also looks as if the heat is getting too far down the case.

just looking for some thoughts or feedback from someone who built one of these machines. I plan on getting some temp crayons from welding supply to check the thermometer.
thanks in advanceView attachment 1282799View attachment 1282800

Nice looking setup. I get bright red in 10-12 seconds with a case held in an electric drill with a Burnz-Amatic torch. I now anneal for about 5 seconds. Depends a lot on what part of the flame your in. The tip of the pointed inner blue I believe is the hottest part of the flame. Crayons are not to be used with the flame on them. I used crayons at work for hot rolling experiments on steel. As soon as the steel came out of the rolling mill I would touch the crayons on the plate to see judge the temp. Held several crayons at a time in one hand. That's how they are used. You touch them on a hot surface. No flame. Buy the TEMPlaq liquid. You have to put it inside the neck. The crayons and Templaq are not to be used with an 1800F flame on them. My cases are very clean looking after annealing. Don't understand your dark color. Do you have case lube or any chemicals on the cases? I would clean a few cases with 0000 steel wool and wipe off with a wet rag and see if the dark color disappears after annealing. If you can easily squeeze the neck slightly oval with with light pressure with pliers they should be over annealed.

 

[Straightshooter1]

Good evening,
i have been slowly getting into reloading over last couple of years but with materials scarce or pricey, I decided to work on a few projects based on some things I saw on the web. One of the projects was an annealing machine based off a couple I saw on YouTube and the web. At the slowest setting, a case will be in the torch flame for a maximum of 12 seconds. The necks never change color or get red, so I decided to pick up an infrared thermometer. I know I don’t want them red yet guys showing these machines run the cases for maybe 5 to 6 seconds. Running 30-06 brass through it for 11 seconds, drops into collection pan, and then hit with infrared, but neck case does not get over 215 degrees Fahrenheit. Using single propane torch.

Based on readings, to soften for neck sizing, I should be in the 450 range. Has anyone built one of these? If so, have you ever checked to see how hot the case neck get? I haven’t seen anyone on web verify case temperature after running through the machine.

see the pictures, it also looks as if the heat is getting too far down the case.

just looking for some thoughts or feedback from someone who built one of these machines. I plan on getting some temp crayons from welding supply to check the thermometer.
thanks in advanceView attachment 1282799View attachment 1282800

Is that a swirl torch head you're using?

I would say YES, your heat to high and too for down IMHO, but just a bit. And if you're using a swirl torch head, you might what to angle so that so much of the flame isn't to far past the shoulder. I use a swirl torch head since it tends to burn hotter so I can heat that part of the case as quickly as possible to minimize the heat that makes its way down towards the web (see pic below of some I just annealed and processed yesterday).

You really don't want the brass turning red as that's an indication of being ~1,000°F, which will over anneal your brass. You can check the spring back with a vice grip tool where it's set to squeeze it just a little to see if it'll spring back or not. If it does not, it's been over annealed.

 

[DirtySteve]

Um, did you darken the room? Sure looks like they got hotter than 750.

 

[Metal God]

Based on readings, to soften for neck sizing, I should be in the 450 range.

That's not accurate as it relates to cartridge brass . 450* is where brass "starts" to soften "not the temp you want to get to . It's important you know cartridge brass annealing is different then simply annealing brass .

Example , most anywhere you look the common answer to annealing brass is . Leave the brass in a heat source of 600* for 60 min and that piece of brass will be fully annealed . What isn't talked about is how large or what the total mass that piece of brass is . It's seems obvious they don't mean a small piece of 223 brass is placed in a 600* heat source for 60min but rather a large hunk/block of brass with a total mass significantly larger then any one piece of cartridge brass .

Ok now that we know annealing time is largely dependent on the size/mass of the piece you intend to anneal . The second thing that can't be ignored is that we don't want the whole piece of brass fully annealed . 1/2 to 3/4 of the lower section of cartridge brass not only should not be annealed , It actually should be harder then the upper 1/4 section ( neck and shoulder ) .

All that means you need to heat the neck and shoulder to at least 600* fast enough that no part of the lower 3/4 of the case gets past 450* where annealing ( softening ) starts .

All that said I find it inconsistent with my testing that a case in a propane torch flame for 12 seconds does not reach 450* . My test showed a 308 case in a one torch flame for 12+ sec would reach a temp of at least 900* . My guess is you either need a different nozzle or place the torch in a different place/angle to the case maybe even both to get the desired result .

Also you really should be using Tempilaq which is a temperature indicator that melts when it reaches a specific temp . You can buy it for different temps . Here's what mine looks like which is 750* inside the necks and 450* below the shoulders

 

[RegionRat]

Based on readings, to soften for neck sizing, I should be in the 450 range.

That 450 F is taken out of context, and, it would be very difficult to get a temp reading with an IR thermometer while annealing brass.

There is no way to get an IR thermometer to work near the flame, and the emissivity would be a moving target. Without an accurate emissivity, you would only get an approximation with IR. The whole event is a rapid transient, which also means the response rate of the IR would have to be very fast. Not impossible, but not going to be cheap or necessary.

Like Metal God is saying, the published temps for cartridge brass annealing can't be take out of context. The 450 F value comes from a context where there is a puck sample and the time values are huge compared to cartridge thickness and times. Those tests are run with a soak in a furnace, which is a context we can't use.

However, it is also because of the thin section of a cartridge neck that you can go hotter and faster to make it work out. Because we can flash heat up in the neck quickly, it can anneal the alloy before the heat has time to propagate down the body and harm the function of the rest of the case.

Trying to anneal cartridge necks too fast or too slow invites difficulty. With a flame, you should darken the room and take things in small steps to observe when there is time hack for the start of a dull glow. It isn't easy to spot at first, so most beginners usually overshoot and then back down and converge on the time.

This is why trying to heat too fast makes this difficult, and trying to go too slow is likely to heat the body. It isn't really difficult if you are taught, but learning on your own can be tricky. There should be enough margin for error between over heating and doing nothing.

 

[Hoyt56971]

Nice looking setup. I get bright red in 10-12 seconds with a case held in an electric drill with a Burnz-Amatic torch. I now anneal for about 5 seconds. Depends a lot on what part of the flame your in. The tip of the pointed inner blue I believe is the hottest part of the flame. Crayons are not to be used with the flame on them. I used crayons at work for hot rolling experiments on steel. As soon as the steel came out of the rolling mill I would touch the crayons on the plate to see judge the temp. Held several crayons at a time in one hand. That's how they are used. You touch them on a hot surface. No flame. Buy the TEMPlaq liquid. You have to put it inside the neck. The crayons and Templaq are not to be used with an 1800F flame on them. My cases are very clean looking after annealing. Don't understand your dark color. Do you have case lube or any chemicals on the cases? I would clean a few cases with 0000 steel wool and wipe off with a wet rag and see if the dark color disappears after annealing. If you can easily squeeze the neck slightly oval with with light pressure with pliers they should be over annealed.

Thanks for the detailed feedback,
the cases were run through a wet tumbler that I also built, the darkness seems to be the result of how long I kept them in the flame. I have done other cases, 22-250, for no more than 5 or 6 seconds that have not discolored this way, so I suspect that the heat is causing the issue when the cases is rotating in the flame for an extended period of time. wet tumbler is nothing more than hot water, Dawn dw liquid, LemiShine, and s.s. pin media.

I was planning on touching the crayons to the case after they drop out of the drum.

also, not sure about the forum etiquette as I am not a typically an online poster, but I am going to respond to each of the responses I received as I appreciate the time it took to let me know your thoughts. thanks to all.

 

[RegionRat]

Try not to depend on discoloration on the brass to determine the HV of the brass.

While it can show well on some brands, it doesn't on others.

I was planning on touching the crayons to the case after they drop out of the drum.

The temp swing it too fast for this to be reliable. If you place the 400 F Tempilaq down on the body, you can learn how far down the heat propagates easy enough. Learning to interpret this in the neck with the higher temp versions is a little tricky with a flame.

 

[Hoyt56971]

Is that a swirl torch head you're using?

I would say YES, your heat to high and too for down IMHO, but just a bit. And if you're using a swirl torch head, you might what to angle so that so much of the flame isn't to far past the shoulder. I use a swirl torch head since it tends to burn hotter so I can heat that part of the case as quickly as possible to minimize the heat that makes its way down towards the web (see pic below of some I just annealed and processed yesterday).

You really don't want the brass turning red as that's an indication of being ~1,000°F, which will over anneal your brass. You can check the spring back with a vice grip tool where it's set to squeeze it just a little to see if it'll spring back or not. If it does not, it's been over annealed.

View attachment 1282812

I have no idea on the torch head, was a Amazon purchase. I will look into it and once I get a chance, I will post pics of the 22-250 I have run through the annealer that look similar to yours. the posted photos were when I ran it to about double the time. However, what I really want to understand and confirm exactly what temperature the case is when it drops out. they come out looking like they were annealed yet without confirming the actual temperature, I can say if that have been properly annealed.

 

[Hoyt56971]

Is that a swirl torch head you're using?

I would say YES, your heat to high and too for down IMHO, but just a bit. And if you're using a swirl torch head, you might what to angle so that so much of the flame isn't to far past the shoulder. I use a swirl torch head since it tends to burn hotter so I can heat that part of the case as quickly as possible to minimize the heat that makes its way down towards the web (see pic below of some I just annealed and processed yesterday).

You really don't want the brass turning red as that's an indication of being ~1,000°F, which will over anneal your brass. You can check the spring back with a vice grip tool where it's set to squeeze it just a little to see if it'll spring back or not. If it does not, it's been over annealed.

View attachment 1282812

never got close to read, not even a dull red

That's not accurate as it relates to cartridge brass . 450* is where brass "starts" to soften "not the temp you want to get to . It's important you know cartridge brass annealing is different then simply annealing brass .

Example , most anywhere you look the common answer to annealing brass is . Leave the brass in a heat source of 600* for 60 min and that piece of brass will be fully annealed . What isn't talked about is how large or what the total mass that piece of brass is . It's seems obvious they don't mean a small piece of 223 brass is placed in a 600* heat source for 60min but rather a large hunk/block of brass with a total mass significantly larger then any one piece of cartridge brass .

Ok now that we know annealing time is largely dependent on the size/mass of the piece you intend to anneal . The second thing that can't be ignored is that we don't want the whole piece of brass fully annealed . 1/2 to 3/4 of the lower section of cartridge brass not only should not be annealed , It actually should be harder then the upper 1/4 section ( neck and shoulder ) .

All that means you need to heat the neck and shoulder to at least 600* fast enough that no part of the lower 3/4 of the case gets past 450* where annealing ( softening ) starts .

All that said I find it inconsistent with my testing that a case in a propane torch flame for 12 seconds does not reach 450* . My test showed a 308 case in a one torch flame for 12+ sec would reach a temp of at least 900* . My guess is you either need a different nozzle or place the torch in a different place/angle to the case maybe even both to get the desired result .

Also you really should be using Tempilaq which is a temperature indicator that melts when it reaches a specific temp . You can buy it for different temps . Here's what mine looks like which is 750* inside the necks and 450* below the shoulders

thanks for the suggestion, I have seen templaq used in the case necks but never on the outer case especially using the two to gauge temperature in the neck shoulder area as well as down in the case. I like that method as it provides a measurement of both. I will order some later tonight.
how do you clean out the templaq in the neck?

btw, thanks to those who responded, this has been super helpful and greatly appreciated. I will post later once I try and give you an update on my results. It might be a couple of weeks as deer archery season kicks off so this will be on the back burner on the list of things to get done.
thanks again.

 

[Phys86]

never got close to read, not even a dull red

thanks for the suggestion, I have seen templaq used in the case necks but never on the outer case especially using the two to gauge temperature in the neck shoulder area as well as down in the case. I like that method as it provides a measurement of both. I will order some later tonight.
how do you clean out the templaq in the neck?

btw, thanks to those who responded, this has been super helpful and greatly appreciated. I will post later once I try and give you an update on my results. It might be a couple of weeks as deer archery season kicks off so this will be on the back burner on the list of things to get done.
thanks again.

One nearly foolproof way of making sure your brass is annealed without having to worry too much about measuring temperature is to set your flame to where inner blue portion is 1-1.5" long, put the tip of that near the neck shoulder junction at a 90 degree angle, turn off the lights so it's completely dark, and set time to where the case neck just barely starts to give a dull red color. Many people do it this way with success.

 

[Metal God]

How do I clean out the tempilaq from inside the necks ? I don’t, seriously. I mean I did with a q-tip and acetone but that’s just wsy to time consuming .

The photo I posted was of 50 cases but those We’re prepped to do multiple types of test they were not prepped to actually perfectly anneal those cases . You only need to use the temp indicator to set up the timing on your machine. So likely only 5 cases or so once set up you no longer need it on every case . Maybe just drop a case in with the temp indicator every 20 to 50 cases to be sure the timing stays consistent which it should with a machine .

FWIW I rarely use the 750 inside the necks anymore. My test showed 450 below the shoulder ( out of flame ) was good to get the necks to 750

 

[Straightshooter1]

how do you clean out the templaq in the neck?

It cleans out easy enough using a wet tumbler, especially if you're using SS pins. Like Metal God mentions, you're only gong to use just a few to set your machine timing set up and so cleaning the inside of the necks with a bore brush or some 0000-steel wool is a quick and easy task.

 

[Metal God]

How do I clean out the tempilaq from inside the necks ? I don’t, seriously. I mean I did with a q-tip and acetone but that’s just way to time consuming .

The photo I posted was of 50 cases but those We’re prepped to do multiple types of test they were not prepped to actually perfectly anneal those cases . You only need to use the temp indicator to set up the timing on your machine. So likely only 5 cases or so , once set up you no longer need it on every case . Maybe just drop a case in with the temp indicator every 20 to 50 cases to be sure the timing stays consistent which it should with a machine .

FWIW I rarely use the 750 inside the necks anymore. My test showed 450 below the shoulder ( out of flame ) was good to get the necks to 750 . Once you get to adequate temp to accomplish your task you really only want consistency from there .

 

[jepp2]

How do I clean out the tempilaq from inside the necks ?

My technique is different from yours. Instead of painting the inside of the case neck extensively like your pic shows, I just make a thin stripe inside the case neck. I run it through my annealing process and let it drop. If the green has turned clear (just looking for the color change), I know it hit the 750 degrees. I don't even worry about the small residual stripe of wax in the neck. Not much different than the carbon residue.

And I'm sure about everyone is well aware of the two different opinions on the temperature the neck needs to reach. But I trust the metallurgist input that says at 750 you are just wasting gas and stress relieving. If you want to anneal, then you must get to the low 1000 degrees (where it just starts to turn dark red in a darkened room). I've done it at both temperatures and can really see no difference in performance.

I found the video where Eric Cortina intentionally over heated his brass during annealing and found NO difference in sizing and bullet seating pressure to be enlightening. Just put me in the "skeptical" corner when I hear folks tell someone they have ruined their brass by over-annealing it. But I'm certainly far from the expert on almost everything.

Eric Cortina Annealing

 

[RegionRat]

Erik now says he changed to an AMP annealer, but he can speak for himself in terms of why he changed.

The timing point that you first get an initial faint dull glow in a darkened room is very useful. As a beginner you should learn how to use this dull glow timing to establish your process baseline and also to compare it to your Tempilaq for the experience.

Try and set up and establish that time to within 0.1 seconds, then break down your set-up and see if you can do it again. Next, run a much bigger or smaller case and do it all again and see if your process discipline was any good. Setting the flame and the aim point of the flame on the neck is a critical skill and very sensitive in terms of heat flux.

The rate that you approach and pass through it is also very critical in terms of getting repeatability with flame annealing. I would rather try and hit that point in seven seconds and be off by no more than 0.1 seconds, than hit it in 3 seconds and be off by 0.1 seconds. The time-temp function of those two sessions is not the same, nor is the hardness result.

I recommend you don't try to speed this process up regardless of induction or flame because it just adds variability to the outcome in terms of time-temp and HV. Don't try and use different gas on different days unless you are willing to re-baseline the whole process.

Watch your flame setting close as time passes. Some bottle sizes and styles run more steady than others, and sometimes a regulator is a good idea if it keeps the setting stable.

There is a difference between set-ups and brass samples that means if you are not willing to learn to be very disciplined with flame annealing, you are better off not doing it at all.

 

[Downhill]

Um, did you darken the room? Sure looks like they got hotter than 250.

I agree with DirtySteve. Color change will be near impossible under bright light.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Look for very dull cherry red in a completely darkened room. Otherwise, it's almost impossible to see in a lighted room unless a brighter cherry red is visible, which is too much.

The tip of lighter/brighter inner cone of the flame should be touching, or almost touching the brass. It's hard to tell where the flame might have been relative to the brass from the image, but if your torch flame was not adjusted that close to the brass, try to re-position it. Secondly, I use a Giraud annealer, which is similar to your unit in terms of its operation, and I prefer to direct the tip of the inner torch flame at a point on the neck just above the neck/shoulder junction. Somewhere in the neighborhood of about 1/4 the way out the neck should be good. That allows full annealing of the neck in a reasonable time-frame per case, and to just below the shoulder, but prevents heating and discoloring the brass too far down the case body. The annealed cases you showed apparently did not get hot enough, and appear to have been heated below the shoulder a little farther than necessary. Positioning the torch assembly and flame tip optimally ought to help with that. If the torch head nozzle isn't long enough to get it where you want it, you may need to replace it.

 

[Metal God]

It's hard to tell where the flame might have been relative to the brass from the image,

The images indicate to me the torch was centered at or just below the shoulder body junction at a 90* angle .

My technique is different from yours. Instead of painting the inside of the case neck extensively like your pic shows, I just make a thin stripe inside the case neck. I run it through my annealing process and let it drop. If the green has turned clear (just looking for the color change), I know it hit the 750 degrees. I don't even worry about the small residual stripe of wax in the neck. Not much different than the carbon residue.

Good idea , The pic looks like the whole neck is covered but it's just one swipe of a brush on one side . At the time I was doing the test based on a thread on another forum so they were marked to be seen clearly in a photo because I knew it was going to be posted . Interestingly enough , when you put a big old blob inside the necks it does not come off that easy after being baked on haha . On the other hand the 450 wipes right off if you wipe when it's still hot-ish

 

[rckendall]

Bench Source recommends a pencil tip torch.

https://www.amazon.com/BernzOmatic-Basic-UL2317-Pencil-Propane/dp/B00008ZA0C/ref=sr_1_9?crid=2MAFDRUPNP9ZU&dchild=1&keywords=pencil+tip+torch+head&qid=1633043246&sprefix=pencil+tip+torch%2Caps%2C203&sr=8-9